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Nov. 10, 1930
1. Statement of Gila Moses Interpreted by Ben Randall.

When I was a boy they made a treaty at old Fort Grant. There was army there and camp and I became scout. There was Indian scout called Sento and there was a captain and he and Sento went to Washington and they come back from there and they sent all the Indians over there to where they call old San Carlos. Sento and Captain they promise us that it was going to be headquarters at San Carlos, which was going to be reservation headquarters and that we will live there all our life. General Cook promised us that this reservation belongs to Indians, to Apache Indians. He came from Prescott and now we are living on it, which is belong to Indians. General Cook promised that this is the reservation set aside for these Apache Indians. That time General Cook and Grant promised that there is a good reservation set aside for the Indians, maybe you Indians have other land outside, north, east or south or west, but we are going to cut a land for you Indians to live on and they promised this reservation being cut for you, belongs to you and we are not going to be put off reservation. You will live on it and not any White settlers will be on reservation. So they told us that this is for your cattle, sheep, goats, horses and White settlers can not go on reservation. About three miles from here, Fort Grant, across the San Petro river there was four scouts, two engineers and two White army men and Al Seva, we camp there and from there we started making reservation from there right straight about northwest to toward Winkleman, from there right straight north through the Pinal mountain, this side of Globe, right straight north. That is where we put reservation line, right straight through through Apache Mountain toward Salt River, up Cherry Creek, then connect that line with Fort Apache reservation right there. We go further on the another mountain, up Cedar Creek and there we camp and Al Seva say we better go back to San Carlos, from there we will start again on the east line. That is all I know.

2. Statement of Paul Papaus interpreted by Ben Randall.

There was a reservation here before me and Al Seva and three others, who are dead. We used to ride down on the reservation line. I know the line from Goddwin Spring where old Joe Hinton's place. The line goes about two miles this side of Fort Thomas right up the ridge through Roaring Spring, right straight East three miles to the side of Eagle Creek, then turn north right straight north through one of the big mountains, right on top of White mountain, and further on right straight north toward another mountain, north side of mountain. That is all I know. There was one reservation, San Carlos and Fort Apache reservation. There was a line right straight from Goddwin to right straight east to Saddle mountain. I do not know how they cut the reservation back through this side. There was line straight east. There is San Carlos Indians here they want to find out about reservation line. We want this land back here what has been cut off. That is all I came for.

3. Statement of Malcolm Macukay interpreted by Ben Randall.

I and some White people we start a second line. We started from Cibecue right straight south through Salt River and Apache Mountain, this side of Globe, right straight south through the Mescal Mountain, straight from there east to what they call Saddle Mountain, right straight on top of the mountain of Stan Butte. That is all I know about the line. We Indians would like to get reservation back that was cut off.

4. Statement of James K. Polk interpreted by Ben Randall.

These Indians are talking about reservation line. They talk about what they know, I am going to say what I know about reservation line.

These Indians here they want the reservation back which has been set aside for them. They want that reservation line the same as it was before. That is what they want, that reservation be put back which was cut off. I saw a mine over here on this reservation which they call McMillan, which is inside the reservation. There was Captain of Army find out there was mine inside of reservation. They sent an army over there under General Cook. This army have all white horses and they put those miners off the reservation. They take them off right there and sent them off the reservation. Later on Captain Kelly cut the reservation line off on which the mine was on reservation. This line which I did not know had been cut off. After that we found out that they cut it off on account there was asbestos on reservation and they are now working on it. We now want reservation changed back to the old line. Lots of Indians know lots of things about reservation.

That is all I got to say but I wish you put all these things what I say. We want this old line back so we get our reservation which was cut off. We want that back.

5. Statement of Charles Dustin interpreted by Ben Randall.

I wish to speak about 655 Indians under the reservoir. That we, over 655 Indians, here under reservoir and lots of land has been covered which we were living on and I don't see why they don't try to get us other land. It seems to me that they don't look after those Indians. We wish to know who is to blame that they don't look after us. These people that they put up the dam for but we Indians under the reservoir they don't look after us. They turn us into the brush, that is all. They don't try to get other land for us. I believe there is another man in Washington who might try to get something for us which we could live on. I wish to know who is not trying to get us the land. There is a well drilled up this valley and there is another at Bylas and they never have tried to work on it. They ought to work on it and put Indians on it. They are pretty slow on it. They promised that they were going to put a well in at Cutter and one way down. This is too pumps. There was about $98,000 put up here for the land at San Carlos and they were supposed to get land for these Indians they they never do it. It is just lost now. These people that put up the dam they are in good shape today for piece of land for crops and we Indians under the reservoir are just lost. Like we are under ground somewhere. Today I wish President or that the Indian Office would help us make another farm land for us so we can live on it and try to help these Indians. This land that I am talking about is just like a man with his heart. Just like it is living and they put reservoir on it. The other people are living on it and they are in good shape and we are just like we are lost. I wish they have some way to put us in good shape. This land here is going to be covered with water from down at Coolidge Dam up to Calva and from there up to Peridot and we have twenty-seven hundred Indians on this reservation. Nobody signed the papers to put up the Dam. Nobody never speak about it and the Indians know nothing about it. The time Commissioner Burke came to San Carlos he promised that from here on this reservation is going to be yours, this belongs to you, if anybody tries to take away from you, you can hold it. Whatever they say it will be yours now. All Indians living on this reservation, they should get something out of the reservation. They money in it they ought to live on it.

There is another thing I understand. They are going to build another dam on the Salt River. The Indians from Fort Apache know that but we Indians don't know anything about it. We own half of that Black River and we ought to have something to say about it. They built dam here here, Coolidge Dam, we never get anything out of it. Now they are putting another dam and it looks like we are not going to get anything out of it. These Indians here who talk about they are going to build another dam below Coolidge Dam. These people who are building dams it looks like they do not have anything. We never get anything out of it. There is an Indian Agent at Fort Apache and one here and if the people want to put dam on reservation the Indian Agents should come and tell the Indians to come together and talk about it and if both sides are satisfied they could go on and do the work. They do not own the land; we Indians own the land. Today I wish the Commissioner of Indians would help the Indians here. We Indians here are worried about this. They are worried about it today. If the White people want to work on these Indian reservations they should come right in this office

and talk about it and if Indians are satisfied they could do the work on it. Today these White people owe us some money and they are going to owe us all their life.

There is another thing I am going to speak about--this telephone line, Mountain States Telephone line. If I go to Globe they won't let me talk on line. Now they run it through on my land on reservation. This telephone line here there ought to be some per cent to the Indians but we never had anything. It looks like they just run it through without any per cent royalty. This telephone line they put through this reservation we Indians do not know anything about it. Nobody say anything to us about it. If they let us know and had talk about it and satisfied on both sides it would be all right but we know nothing about it. It passed through without us knowing. That is why we Indians like the Indian Office to know that. They Indians or any White people, if there is something good on his land he should have something out of it and these Indians want something out of the telephone line.

6. Statement of Henry Chinn interpreted by Ben Randall.

There is another thing that we want to find out. We talk to Mr. Kitch about it, about this gas line. What Mr. Kitch said they are not going to run it through the reservation but we Indians found out that we write to Washington that we do not know they were going to have a gas line through our reservation. They survey through this reservation already where they are going to have gas line. We Indians feel that they are going to build this gas line through this reservation cause the Company lost a lot of money already and they are going to build it through now but we Indians ought to get together with the Company and if the Indians are satisfied, and if both sides are satisfied, it should go through. If the Company come in here to this office and tell the Indians that I am going to build gas line through reservation for so much and then if we are satisfied it will be all right if they give us something. This is all about the gas line.

Commissioner told us that this damage on the reservoir was $90,000.00, is not enough to go among the Indians. They should buy the cattle for the Indians so that the Indians can get reimbursable for the cattle. We Indians feel that if they bought cattle for us for our sale we could live on it in good shape in the future generation. This is the only way we feel about it--that is to buy cattle. This is the only way we can do our self-support but we can not do any self-support without giving us anything. The Government helped us lots of times but if he should help us in the cattle business. It is all right but not for just myself but all the Indians on the reservation.

Another thing that I wish. These White people here, they work on the reservation for us, that is Mr. Kitch is the head man and under him we have employees, cattle men. They should help us in cattle business. There is lots of Indians on these reservation, they should help them and do in the right way to cooperate with these people and help them in straight way, teach them to live and how to do the work and how the cattle business.

7. Statement of John Rope Interpreted by Ben Randall.

Some of these Indians talk about the reservation line, inside belongs to the Indians they say. We would like to have these lands as long as this generation lives. This land is good to live on. White people live on land just the same. These Indians live on it, that is the reason we want to have this land as long as we live. The land off the reservation the White people live on it and they have houses in Globe and everything about it. They live on it at Safford and big valley. They have lots of cotton on it and the White people live on it. That is why I talk about reservation, we want to live on it. We could raise lots of things, cattle, farm and everything else. We could live on this reservation. These White people they live off of reservation they should thank us cause they have lots of things on that land that we used to own and now they are trying to get in on to this reservation. We do not want anybody on this reservation. There are several reservations in United States. They are in pretty good shape, just like White people, but we Indians on this reservation are way behind yet. We are not like White people yet. I do not mean I am going to be a White man but I am talking about this future generation.

I know lots of springs on this reservation, I know the names, I know the mountains, all of these mountains. I do not want any White settlers going in and taking away money.

One thing I want to find out. They write it down and I want to know if they send it to Washington. Lots of times I talk but it looks like they never send anything to me yet. I have talked lots of times and want it to go to Washington. I understand I had lots of money and I ought to talk to Washington instead of talking here.

That is all I have to say.

8. Statement of Mike Nelson interpreted by Ben Randall.

I like to know why these Government employees are in good shape and nothing wrong with them but we Indians we are going backwards. We ought to be the same as they are. I would like to know what money the Government pays them, the Indian funds or the United States Treasury. The Government should help us some way, help us to get in good shape, try to up-lift us toward White people, same as White people. We are ward of the Government. We are friends with the Government but still today we are friends yet. We are friends since 1872. Since 1872 the Government used to help us but now just like they are throwing us away. Since down at San Carlos they never help us. We Indians live at San Carlos on our farms but now we do not have any farms. Another thing. Looks like these Indians are all going to die this winter or starve this winter. These Indians feel this way. We used to live on farm and plant crop but now I wish to plant some crop but I can not cause there is no land for us, no farm land for us. I wish the Government would try to go ahead and put up a farm for us as quick as they can. Lots of Indians here on the reservation like to have a farm cause the farm is good to live on.

There is another thing I would like to speak about. They never say they are going to build highway on this reservation. They never tell us about it. Who give it to them? If the White man hand land and if they build a road through or withdraw his land he get paid for it but here they have lots of work done on our reservation and they never give us anything. The Government should have them put up another farm for these Indians. Here it seems to me that these Government employees on this reservation have all these tools and put it away and not try to put us with tools and try to make a farm for the Indians.

There is another thing. I like to know why there is not very much farm on this reservation but I see there is several Government farmers here. There should not be several Government farmers, there is not much land for the Indians. If there is a big farm on the reservation they should have several farmers but there is not much, that is why I say that. It seems to me that these Government farmers they just walking, not doing anything, just getting paid for it. They are not working or assisting Indian farmers. We know lots of these White people want money. These Indians also want money.

That's all.

9. Statement of Stephen Smith interpreted by Ben Randall.

I would like to speak a few word about these Indians. They call us citizens but we Indians are way behind yet. We are not supposed to be citizens because we are way behind. We are very needy yet. These citizens they should not stay in this reservation. We are very poor Indians here, just like we are in jail. What these Indians speak about today here is true. Just like we are asking somebody to help us, to help us some way to up-lift our people here.

There is another thing I would like to see about. We have several loads wood going through here that has been cut on reservation. I would like to know if there is any per cent royalty that goes to the Indians. These Indians on reservation do not know anything about that wood. There is lots of wood being pass here in truck toward Globe that we know nothing about. This is worth money and belongs to the Indians. There should be some per cent to the Indians. They should have nothing goes through here we do not know about it. There are several things going on this reservation that we do not know.

These Indians here need work and the Government should put up some money on this reservation to give Indians work here, wages from $3.50 up per day, not $2.50 that been paid for a long time here but it never has been raised yet. They should raise the wages to $3.50 up.

That's all.

10. Statement of John Rope interpreted by Ben Randall.

I wish to speak about Allen Gosyun being killed over here by Government car last year. He was a scout and was a pension man. He used to get $50.00 per month. He came to Indian Agent here one time but they never done anything for him. They should have something give to his children. He was riding in the car with another widow which he was going to be witness for the old widow for pension and before he get to Rice he lost his life. They never done anything for the widow. He was a good old man and the Government, or whatever it is, should help him and the old man's children. This old man helped the Government a lot. He is the one that captured Geronimo and put him into prison.

11. Statement of Richard Bylas interpreted by Henry Chinn.

I would like to say a few words how represent the tribe here on the reservation. A year about gone now, 1930, soon will come 1931.

I will make effort to suggest through Mr. Kitch to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and I say that the reservation has made since 1872 when the settlement at San Carlos Agency. I notice that we have permittee on this reservation paying money to the reservation. Now this coming 1931 I wish that Mr. Kitch would recommend this. The condition of the Indian that they are poor and need help. I believe that some money has been paid. Part of the money in reservation on south side of that in which several thousand dollars needed to the Indian and I believe that damage money given the San Carlos and I believe there is some left here and believe electricity and power line paid in royalty. To these sale were combined to the Indian fund placed to these Indians were to work for it. Of course I do not mean in 1931 was to make any further appropriation for these Indians here but I am speaking of 1931 should pass a Bill here for this Indian. I know quite a number of this reservation here and a good many off reservation and I am speaking for those that need help and I want Supt. Kitch with us two years perhaps all this time he do not do any help for us and at this time I suggest that need application and make recommendation to the Indian Office to make appropriation for these people. I believe that I may use this funds that was here on the reservation, that is from Coolidge Dam, electricity and light on the south side of the reservation that paid in so much. I see that some tufa stone was built in town. These places I went represent some funds paid into this reservation here. May be some money left which we need it. I notice one time at old San Carlos I was on police duty one time and sheep was drove through reservation and the Superintendent sent me over there and I collected fees from the people who drove sheep and I believe there is some doing that yet.

12. Statement of Charles Sago interpreted by Henry Chinn.

I heard some of what Indians say about the reservation. It is true what they said. They are speaking on reservation that something for these people here and something that is worth while. I know reservation which it is valuable one that give us a good living and of course we told the people we are living for the children to come and on this reservation I notice there are the Coolidge Dam that all the damage money we do not receive a cent from that. I know that they are going to put in electricity that with building homes and is going to be valuable. Also that railroad company had changed from the old right of way to the new right of way on account of the Coolidge lake. I know that asbestos mine on this reservation which is valuable and making some per cent and I was notice that they have been taking wood off from our reservation to off reservation. I notice there there are some permittees on this reservation that pay in so much money. I believe that we have got plenty money and I notice that several of them locate store, trading store. Perhaps they are paying in some money to the Indians and we notice that we have income to our reservation here but we continue by the Government on help. These people here we are so poor and need to be helped. Several times we know that something worth while we should be make suggestion and beg for it but we have not got it yet. There is some kind of a feeling toward this people here that this is our reservation, why we should get it without any delay so that we can get ourself supporting by this and anything that we ask by this written letter is going to be mailed into Washington I wish it will be given to us and we are wise enough to take care of it. If our money is paid to us we are wise enough to take care of it and treat it just what is necessary. I wish our Government or our Commissioner of Indian Affairs would see that if we should coming better prepared to aid self-supporting I believe no further we ask the Government to help us any more. You know our reservation is a valuable one and for this reason feel making object to have anyone come into our reservation without knowing it.

I would make to make suggestion through this office here about this drift fence. If the Government would buy us some wire, at each cattle sale they would deduct so much to pay it reimbursable. I would like to speak about this meeting a divide. The people we live at Bylas we would like to have a drift fence right across Warm Springs somewhere so that the Bylas people would have that country on that side and the drift fence will be run through the Warm Springs which we will not take all of Warm Spring but will take half of that. We believe that if we have a drift fence that we would not have much loss of our cattle and we believe that we look after it better than here the country is open now. Of course we are not going to take this but we want as a proper way to take it but this we believe our cattle is being protect and during this roundup work some of our men from that will come on our range and some of our people go to that range and bring our cattle back. This is all about the drift fence.


When our Commissioner Scattergood was right here July 1, 1930, I took the matter up with him about the irrigation pump up the Gila River. Now for several years we do not have any farm land up there and we had no produce on lands that lie there and we had so much in a heart shape and we are slowly starving to death by not having a farm. Now ever since they withdraw lands no crop anywhere but I know it and several others know it that if we had a piece of ground and raise what we could need then we were better. I stated here onetime that where a person got a piece of ground he could raise anything he wants, anything suitable to garden and crop and if a person got land and a house then you live. What makes me worried is that land is just idle. No farm on it and we should have the Government put the wells on it so we can have a home there.

13. Statement of Gila Moses interpreted by Henry Chinn

I am old but I came up. I had a farm up there but it don't seem I got enough water. There is an irrigation pump about there but it is too small that we could not get enough water through it. I would like to see about this pump. I would like to get a larger pump located for water to get enough water for our farm and also I would like to ask for a good farmer up there who will teach us to raise what should be raised, a man that has experience in farming. I notice in the farm that if you plant barley you get some for your horses and wheat you plant that and that is something which you take to mill for flour and that reason they cut the grain with the threshing machine which is needed if the Government will buy what we need. I know that a person such as a farmer would know how to raise something who would teach us, this would make a good living and we feel good in every way. Of course, I am old and blind and unable to do this thing myself but I am speaking for my children who live up there. Of course, anything I had go to my children and I would be contented on after that life. Of course the farms up there what we get under irrigation are about twenty families and under this well pump us there. Of course I feel for these other people who have farms under this well here. Of course, if they put pump in there I expect to help the Government to build a concrete ditch there so there would not be any waste of water. I would suggest through this office here to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs that if they would help me have this done for me, if the Commissioner grant what I ask then I feel a young person again.

14. Statement of Mark Hanna interpreted by Henry Chinn.

I have listened here to these people talk about the reservation. If what the people ask, if the Commissioner grant, it is good and be something better to come. Of course, one man can not do everything it it always requires a few men who would represent this year to speak to the Commissioner. Of course, according to what Mr. Kitch has planned, it is a good one. I believe these cattle, the Indians give $2.50 to range they are feeling proud of it and they are feeling good about it. Of course, perhaps I like to do something about these people here but in order that we may petition in this thing here in order that the Commissioner will grant anything we ask.

About this drift fence which Charlie Moses referred to awhile ago. It don't sound good at all. Of course we got to have a country as well as them. Then I object to it cause the cattle is going to be increased and we have got to have country to run our stock. I believe it would be fair to just leave it open country for all.

15. Statement of Dutch Bett (TE 34) interpreted by Henry Chinn.

I live down at Coolidge Dam and I and another party went hunting on the other side of the Gila River and we run into a man named Ed Bowman's ranch and he saw us in his range and he said that he is going to shoot and kill us and also whip the boy that was with me. Of course, if a man was on the boundry line he should respect the Indians here and he should not make a threat to kill or anything like that. Of course, if Mr. Bowman feels that we are interfere with his cattle he should make a threat with intent to kill. I would like to notify here that Mr. Bowman has hired a Mexican to do some work on reservation. I do not know whether Mr. Kitch has given authority to do that. Of course he says we are ward of the Government here and he was on the boundry line and he should see things here and not make attempt to murder with his weapon or whip the boy. Of course in that corner fence, I talk the matter over with Mr. Kitch about opening gates for cattle after water but Bowman just go ahead and build a road through from reservation to dam. Of course Mr. Kitch should look into this here and of course for the interest of the Indian here and he should see to it. We believe that Kitch has not any interest of the Indian but for the White people. I was over there one time, over at bar range and I notice that the dry grass was pretty good in that range and they said there was no cattle but the horses had all been killed off, all the Indians horses that had been located around there. Of course some of these horses are of value to us cause we pay for it and they go in there and kill them. I believe that Mr. Bowman was on the reservation and we believe that no such man has interest at all. He does not get along with Indians and it is best for him to just move his stock out.

16. Statement of Charles Naltway interpreted by Henry Chinn.

Here you talk about reservation. Of course, when I was a young boy this reservation was set aside for the Indians here and I hear what the others speak that make the reservation line with some White men.

It has been about thirty years the Indians among the White people East and I went with the Army over the Philippine and of course when I served over to the Philippine I returned to the reservation here and I found the people were poor. Of course I had to fall back on them the same as with them.

Up here at MacMillan Wash there was located a pump. Now I wish they had drilled further down so that we would have some water for farming land. Of course about sixty or seventy Indians had farmed lands and live on it but now we have no land. We are just like we have on home. Of course we take up some land at MacMillan Wash but there is no water now. Of course at McMillan wash where they had a pump they intended to put in an electric pump but the well went dry and left no water. Of course by work a person has land and his home it would make a good living. I would like to tell Commissioner that I served in Philipine and came home and live.

17. Statement of John Nosey interpreted by Ben Randall.

I have little to say here. We have an Agent here, Mr. Kitch, he should help us to uplift these Indians here. To upleft them in their homes and in their farms, I see that Mr. Kitch is helping these Indians a whole lot. These Indians are going to get their checks in a few days without work. That is in this cattle sale. Some of these Indians do no do any work but they are going to get checks just the same. We see Mr. Kitch is helping us a whole lot. I feel that we Indians should help ourselves also if Mr. Kitch help us he is not the only one should help, we should help him also, that is if we are able to selfsupporting. About seven years ago Mr. Kitch came here to see that these Indians get cattle. Before they never had that. I see that these Indians are going to get their checks. They are pretty glad of it. I know that he is doing pretty good for the Indians. I see there is a big country up here at Ash Flat and Warm Springs which was permittee but all his cattle are off and now the Indians own the grazing land. The Indians do not want anybody to build a fence between that country. We want all open country. Since this reservation been established I know of one Agent called Mr. Clum who issued cattle and sheep to the Indians and also he issued goods of all kinds, rations, etc. Now I have to say we Indians are to blame on that. That helped lots of Indians. Some of these Indians have their cattle and one fellow has a big herd here. That is Leis Victor. There is another Indian Agent here, Mr. Weaver, who issued cattle to the Indians. He help us a whole lot. I say that Mr. Kitch has a good feeling for the Indians and he help the Indians around here and we have some cattle from Mr. Kitch's work. I would like to see Mr. Kitch talk to the Indians and give them some idea and the the Indians follow him in good living and he should live on his own hand and own work, that is if he is to be a man, and not to ask anybody to help him. This is the way to be a man and to make a living. This is the way we will be self-supporting.

18. Statement of James Stevens.

What I want to talk to you about is some land we sold to the United States Government about thirty-four years ago which we have never received any money from it. We were supposed to have money paid to us from the sale of land and we were supposed to work on mining and coal land which never existed. The land is now idle and we think that the land belongs to us and we ask Congress to remedy this and give our land back which lies south of the Gila River known as the coal field strip.

I also want to talk about the power line which was erected at the dam after the dam was built and we understand that the Cassa Grande people and the Pima Indians claim all the power line rights after the Coolidge Dam is paid for out of their power line and we consider that the power line, being built after the dam was built, that we have an interest in it and we ought to be considered if not for all of it for half of it.

I want to also ask for appropriation to buy more bulls for our cattle as we are short on bulls and it is practicable that they could buy more IDA tribal herd, of course it would be that much better for us because the cattle business is really the best business that we can get into here.

Furthermore, I want to say a little about the San Carlos Indians. I believe they should have the land made as the Government agreed to have this land for them and they now have no land and are living close to other camps. They ought to get busy and make some land for them.

That is about all I have to say.