Interviewee: John Rector

Interviewer: Beth Adler

Interview date: December 12, 2003

Beth Adler: Okay. So I guess the first thing I'd like to ask you is how you came to be in Providence? I know you were a big part of the club scene later but

Johm Rector: Well I came to Providence to go to Brown in the fall of '67. I was a member of the class of '71.

BA: Oh, okay. So you're very- no wonder Faunce House is familiar to you.

JR: Yeah, yeah. Basically that was of course- it was the sixties, um, and with moratoriums they closed down most campuses in that time, especially junior and senior year. That would be 1970 and 1971. Vb, a lot of time to hang out.

BA: Right

JR: And with RISD just down the hill, I seemed to be spending rnore and more time down there. I also got involved with what was called then the Graduate Center Bar.

BA: Yes, the GCB. The infamous.

JR: Which is in the Grad Center, although not in the- it was actually in what was called the Jellybean Lounge, which is now apparently their computer center. But it's in the main tower on the first floor, behind the spiral staircase.

BA: Okay, yeah. I live in tower B.

JR: I lived in tower B 'til they kicked me out. I got off campus in my junior year because Mrs. Callus didn't like me. But anyway, in the summer of1971, I became the manager of the Grad Center Bar

BA: Okay. And how did you...? Was it on Jobmail? No, I'm kidding.

JR: No, no, there was no Jobmail. I was- I had been working there um, for about a year and a half. They got rid of the previous manager and I got the job. I had also helped co found Mother Records, which was a record store, first in Faunce House just right by the mailboxes, and then we moved to a more permanent location, also in Faunce House that became a folk lounge sort oftoo; and we had a record store there during the day.

BA: Wow. Whatever happened to that?

JR: I lost track of it.

BA: Wow.

JR: But anyway, it was about this time when I started with the Grad Center that I got to know a lot more of the interesting characters both on the Brown campus and the RlSD campus. It was one of the few places in Providence that- The Grad Center was big enough that we could have live entertainment, um, the bands were cheap enough that we didn't have to charge a cover or anything, and it was a very popular spot because there wasn't really much of an alternative. Vb, cheap beer, you know. I think nickel drafts cost a quarter or something like that.

BA: Why was the no alternative? Just I know people nowadays go down to Providence

JR: Well, uh, at the foot of the hill there was The Crystal Tab, which is where Steeple Street, 3 Steeple Street is now. And that was a little- That wasn't really student friendly. And there was also the Manny's Ringside Lounge in Foxpoint where Z-Bar is now. And again that wasn't very student- There just weren't many student places. Thayer Street didn't have any liquor licenses. The city fathers didn't want to grant any at that time, or something. And of course the drinking age was eighteen, so that made a big difference in the core constituency that we could pour to, as it were. Um, so it was in that period that I got to know a lot of people in Providence who became the heart of the art, music, whatever you scene. I think that first story that I can think of was about, and this may be apocryphal. I actually did not attend the event I'm gonna talk about, but I have been told by people who claim they were there. And apparently the museum of

BA: [simultaneously] Well legend is valid, you know.

JR: The Museum of Fine Art in Boston, someone observed- I think it was either Marty Mull or Charlie Rocket. Vb, they observed that there were these rooms that they had in the museum but they weren't putting any art in them. So they decided they would have their own exhibit of their work. Of course it was the bathrooms they were talking about

BA: [laughs]

JR: The title of the show was I'll Be Art in a Minute, um, and supposedly they sent out invitations and hung the show at the appointed hour, and people came in. Until security showed up, they had an art opening.

BA: [laughs]

JR: Which I thought was kind of a clever idea. As I say, I'm not sure this ever happened.

BA: Especially since, you know, it must be fairly difficult to get into the Boston Museum of Fine Art.

JR: If you're carrying lots of art underneath your arm I'm sure- As I say, I'm not sure this happened, but it was much more innocent times. And who knows.

BA: That's excellent. So, uh, you were working at the GCB?

JR: Yeah. And uh say Charlie and Martin Mull, and I think professor Mular might have been involved in that little escapade too. And another group of people, uh, hanging around time at that point was Scott Hamilton

BA: Okay

JR: who's a saxophone player. And I remember one afternoon, Scott and Fred Bates - the Hamilton Bates Blue Flames was the name of their band. Vb, Fred Bates is approximately eight feet tall, and Scott probably weighs about 98 pounds

BA: Wow.

JR: so they were kind of a weird combo. [They] came in with a little cassette player and, uh, played me one of their bands songs. And I was just blown away by it. It was basically bop, and I booked 'em into the Grad Center, and I think they played for the door, which was a buck. But they were a huge success. It was during the- Duke Robillard also had a band around here then.

BA: Right, he's

JR: Who's a fairly famous guitar player. But Scott Hamilton and Fred Bates and the Blue Flames were, uh, a wonderful group. And of course we had some other groups. The Stewardesses, which is one of my favorite little acts. It was dreamed up by a man named Jeff Thomas, whose father was a philosophy professor at Brown, and whose mother was the- stepmother - was the dean of Pembroke

BA: Oh wow, so connected.

JR: Vb, he was a little weird. But anyway, basically he insisted that everyone in the audience put on 3-D glasses while his band performed. Vb, this is sort of in the genre of the Motels. I don't know if you know who the Motels are.

BA: Right, yeah.

JR: Then, The Fabulous Motels. And then The Tantalizing Tampoons

BA: Right, Rudy. Indeed.

JR: And all these people started hanging out together. There were several centers where people hung out. One was Joe's Sandwich Shop; which was on Benefit Street and is now Geoff's.

BA: Right.

JR: Dewey Durfanse, uh, brilliant marketer and communicator and guy, was really a bigand Joe's were big centers for, I guess we called it the Counter Culture. In fact, Dewey would always say - that's Edward DufIense - Dewey would always say, you know "Come on right up to the counter here, join the Counter Culture." You know, to eat your sandwich and whatever. Um, but these were times. It was a period where there was a lot of energy, a lot- a need for focus, but not really any central thing. And it was, you know, the Counter Culture was- we saw ourselves as distinct, and different from a large portion of the rest of the country, or the society, or whatever you want to say.

BA: Right. Like other things that were going on?

JR: Yeah. You know, with Vietnam, uh, and the moratoriums and all that. It was kind of a divisive time, but in many ways it helped forge closer connections among certain subgroups. Um, I then in 1974

BA: And you graduated '71 right?

JR: I graduated 1971. In 1974 I opened up a restaurant called Leo's, which was in the jewelry district on Chestnut Street. Um, basically Dewey Dufranse was instrumental in getting me involved, and, um, David- oh boy, what is Mr. Pants' real name? He was in the clothing business. Had an altemate clothing store downtown called UFO. He was known as Mr. Pants, Dewey was known as Mr. Sandwich and I of course was Mr. Suds.

BA: How did these---?

JR: Well he was in the sandwich business. David was in the pants business.

BA: Okay

JR: And I sold beer.

BA: Alright. There you go. Alright.

JR: But anyway, Dewey introduced me to a friend of his from Philadelphia who moved to Providence. His name was Jolm Lovel, who is also a very fascinating character, although we did not get along very well as business partners. But we opened up Leo's. We opened it September 23m of '74 after many delays. It was supposed to open up in June, but the project became more and more ambitious.

BA: How so?

JR: Well, it was a lot more work than we thought it was.

BA: Oh, okay.

JR: It's called a couple of amateurs open a bar. Okay.

BA: Of course.

JR: We really didn't know what we had to do. [Jolm's cell phone rings].

BA: You can get that if you need.

JR: Yeah, just a second, let me look at it. Vb, yeah, it'll just take me a minute.

BA: Okay, I'm gonna ask then to turn this [the music] down a little. [Jolm talks on cell phone while Beth asks Ocean's staffifit would be possible to turn down the music. They kindly offer to turn it off. The interview continues.]

JR: Are we going?

BA: It's [the minidisc recorder] not erasing what we said before. I just wanted to make sure of that.

JR: Alright, okay.

BA: Okay.

JR: So September of '74 I opened Leo's with a partner. Probably the most distinctive feature of Leo's was a 19-foot painting done by Dan Gosh

BA: Okay.

JR: called "What'll It Be?" which I hope there is someplace a picture of for your exhibition because it was- It was basically a picture of a bunch of people in a bar. And it was a very wide range of people, ftom uh, there were a pair of elderly twin sisters eating hotdogs. Most all the images were from magazine advertisements. Actually there was only one real person in the entire thing.

BA: Who was that?

JR: And it turned out to be Royal Little, who was the founder of Textron.

BA: Why?

JR: Hm?

BA: Why?

JR: Well, I don't think Dan knew who it was.

BA: Oh, okay.

JR: But because the Fidel division of Textron was right across the street fIom us, when people came in fIom Fidel for lunch they'd say "That's Royal Little." Of course, we didn't know who that was. But anyway, um, Leo's was an immediate success. There's obviously been a pentup demand for a younger bar, as it were.

BA: Right. So there wasn't anything between Grad Center and Joe's, there wasn't really anything else around?

JR: No, there wasn't any place else. And the thing is of course, we'd all been told, or we all informed ourselves that it was impossible to get a city liquor license in the city of Providence because Joe Doorly was in charge. So l, of course, being naive and stupid, went down and applied for one, and was granted one.

BA: Wow. Paid off.

JR: Not a dime. Never. We found a space in the jewelry district, which at that point was actually filled with small jewelry shops.

BA: Right. No longer.

JR: Um, and we opened, as I said, September '74, and it was a perfect location because once you get in your car, all points equidistant in Rhode Island, and we didn't disturb anybody and whatever. And as I said, we were quite successful quite quickly. At drinks a buck a piece.

BA: Wow. Well...

JR: Yeah. That's for a nice two-ounce scotch and soda, or whatever. Um, I continue. We didn't have that much entertainment at Leo's. We were kinda limited in our size. But we did have- start having, our asphalt picnics in the summer. It was during then that what was to become the Young Adults - Cheeks and Sportfisher, Sportfisher was the drummer, I think Jeff Shore who was the keyboard guy, and I'm not sure who else was involved in that proto thing - they did the asphalt picnic which was

BA: So the Young Adults did the entertainment?

JR: It was in the parking lot. And later that fall

BA: I'm sorry, what year is this?

JR: I think this is '75 or '76 we're in now. I'm not sure.

BA: Okay. So you've been open for a while

JR: I remember I was; I was busy. But we had- There was a cult-like singer called Brute Force, and I'm sure Rudy has gone on about Brute Force.

BA: Probably. I interviewed him about a very specific thing.

JR: But Brute Force had an album out, and the title of the album was To Sit on a Sandwich. [sings] "When nothing could be finer..." something like that, "To sit on a sandwich." Jim's Garage was another big hit of his. He had at one point been a singer with The Tokens, who did The Lion Sleeps Tonight. A wim-oh wept A wim-oh wep. Um, and uh, Brute came to town. I don't know how he got together with Cheeks, but he did vocals in fIont of what was not yet called the Young Adults.

BA: Okay.

JR: Um, and at the one and only concert of Brute Force with the proto Young Adults was a huge success. People were literally standing on tables. It was the biggest crowd- I'm sure I broke every fire code there ever was. But um, Brute really loved it. His name was Steve something-or-other, I can't remember. Um, and he wanted to start- wanted to be in the band. Well, the band really didn't have any real need or use for him. They had sort of been stringing him along, one could say. So it was pretty devastating when he actually moved to Providence, got a job, uh, on the night shift at a coffee shop so he could pay his rent for him and his wife. It really got to be kind of a mess. But anyway, that was the first appearance of the Young Adults as- I think they were the Young Adults. Rudy was working at the restaurant at that point. He called himself Chore-Boy" because he was a dishwasher-janitor. But he trained his successor, Brian, who later went on to be the, um, what-do-you-call-it? The person who actually puts together the piece of art?

BA: Curator?

JR: No, not the curator. He actually was- For Julian Sclmabel, who did the broken plates and all that.

BA: Right.

JR: I don't know if you've ever- Anyway, "Chore-Boy Jr." as he was known. But this was, uh, this is in the mid '70's. The Adults were just starting out. Lupo's opened about '70- I think late '74, early '75

BA: So you two were kinda concurrent?

JR: Yeah, we knew each other fIom Brown.

BA: Right.

JR: Um, Rich was really much more music driven than Leo's was; again, because of the venues, and the basic concepts. Leo's was a real conversation bar. We didn't even have a TV for a long time. Well no actually, we did have a TV, but we very rarely had it on. But it was a wonderful time and it was a real conversation bar. People came to see each other, to talk, to actually debate the issues of the day - I know that sounds like crap but

BA: No, not at all. This is Brown, please; it's what we do all the time. No, I'm kidding.

JR: And no Brown students were allowed. No, I'm (kidding). I've heard over the years from many a Wheeler student or a Lincoln student that they had their first drink in a barat Leo's - when they were sixteen, of course. So please, I hope the police don't get hold of this tape. But anyway, that's many years ago, I'm sure the statute oflimitations is out.

BA: Over, yeah.

JR: But at this point people started to move downtown. The Conrad Building - what is now the Conrad Building - which was where the original Lupo's was on Westminster Street. Do you know where that is?

BA: Yeah.

JR: Across from the, what is now the govemment building. The Conrad building was a magnet for a lot of- especially RlSD artists. And Cheeks lived in that building as well, and that's where he had what he called his "Casual Research Institute". Um, which is listed in the phonebook under that title. And he lived there, and a whole bunch of other people, including my wife, Teresa Level, who was a jeweler at the time. And Peter Pripp was in there, and I think Janet Pripp was in there.

BA: So it was a great community.

JR: Yeah. And other buildings were slowly being illegally filled up with people.

BA: Oh, wow. So they were

JR: These were definitely illegal

BA: Like a squatting thing?

JR: Well not squatting, they were paying rent in most cases, but they were supposed to not be there at night.

BA: Ah. Okay. 'Cause it's downtown also, so

JR: Right. It wasn't zoned for residential or anything else, but, uh, they were buildings that produced very little in revenue for landlords, and landlords would look the other way, or not care. Or whatever. So there was really quite a vibrant little community in downtown Providence, and a very close knit one. Because there was really very little going on elsewhere, you know, downtown otherwise, except for these younger artists, musicians, hangers-on, whatever. Then, unfortunately, a woman was killed in a freight elevatot one night, um, and that obviously that's- a tragedy of that level had the city examining- they discovered all these people living in buildings illegally. And they put an end to that 'til much, much later.

BA: So how did that affect Leo's and the community?

JR: It didn't really affect Leo's and Lupo's. Well it really shattered the community, because a lot of people who had been living downtown now had to leave. So that whole sense of community, um, was broken up by that. And also, you know, rather than growing it, it really stopped it dead in its tracks.

BA: Wow.

JR: You know, Carner's Lunch, which was behind, uh, Lupo's was a major hangout there, and they've since gone out of business and whatever.

BA: So why were you guys fine and they--? Different dynamics?

JR: Well we were- You know, I had a bar and restaurant and Lupo had a music venue, so people would come there. But the, uh- But so did- I mean, what would have developed into a very nice arts community downtown was, uh, cut short because of the terrible accident.

BA: Right, right.

JR: Um, but Jeff Thomas was around and was living downtown in those days. Jeffwho often tried to drive his car up the side of a building - he was sure that he could do it if he could just get the right start. I'm not saying drugs were involved, but probably. But that's really the community of the '70's that I recall most, ftom downtown particularly. It started primarily on the Brown, and probably more on the RlSD campus

BA: And as people moved off

JR: And as people moved off, they didn't want to leave Providence, because Providence was a pretty cool place then.

BA: Was that largely due to

JR: It was inexpensive. I mean I remember, I remember my u- A friend of mine who I graduated with at Brown, uh, I talked to him two or three years after graduation. I was paying less for my apartment than he was paying for his parking space in Manhattan.

BA: Wow. So it might not be a New York City, but it was a good place to be.

JR: So, it was very-, Yeah, Providence was comparatively cheap, um, in fact very cheap, and there was a basic core of people who were fairly hip and interesting, and it was a nice place to be, especially downtown.

BA: So do you want to tell me a little bit more about the summer picnics?

JR: Oh sure. Well those, we did those for three or four years. They became a problem because they became too successful, basically.

BA: Ah, too many people.

JR: Yeah, too many people, and crowd control becomes an issue with everything else and I am not a music guy, per say, in that I might want to stage large events. I'm not into it, I mean, that was more Lupo's thing, and he was very good at it. He and Jack Ritt. But the summer picnics, they eventually evolved into a Leo's employee's picnic, which was held on Labor Day. Leo's was closed two days a year: Labor Day and Christmas Day. The Labor Day picnics became very popular, especially when we had them down in Wickford. There was a couple- Three hundred people. I think the official requirements for attending were you had to have worked at Leo's and left in good standing, or hung around enough to know that the party was going on. So there were quite a few people there. The mayor. This is when Buddy would attend - at this point he was on the scene, and never wanted to pass up a party or a shaking of a hand.

BA: [laughs] Right.

JR: He was there. Um, there were- You know, we'd have lobster and good stuff. It was a lot of fun. And we had, we had some music I believe one year, but basically it became a

BA: Social?

JR: again, just a real social picnic.

BA: Right, which is kinda what Leo's was like.

JR: And again, drinking was involved. But the summer picnics were a nice thing. They finally ran out of steam when they became too complicated. Again, we couldn't find a venue that would allow us to serve beer without having insurance. Yeah, you know it was like the bureaucrats kinda caught up with us. But really that's kinda my view of downtown, and the community, and the arts community downtown, which I think is what you're looking for.

BA: So it was largely- The people who uequented Leo's were largely, you know, from the Brown-RlSD

JR: Well, Brown, RISD campus, obviously, also the Lincoln and Wheeler campuses apparently, too. Um, and then some of the people who lived downtown, and things like that. And it was a, it was a very vibrant community. And in fact, the Hedison building which is at 116 Chestnut Street, which is kitty comer ftom Leo's. Urn, that was Hedison Manufacturing Company. They moved their plant in I think '75 or 6, perhaps '77, out to Lincoln. And so the building became available, um, and Jeff Blidenberg, and Ralph - oh come on, what's Ralph's name? l, I'll call you with it later, or I'll put it into the finishedI mean he's an architect, designer. They were sitting at Leo's one night and looked out there and said "Hey! That building is empty." And they said "Wouldn't it be cool to have 10ft spaces there?" And so they ended up acquiring the building and putting it in condo 10ft spaces.

BA: And this was how long after the whole "people were kicked out of downtown"? JR" Well this was I think was- I don't know that-. Well see now the thing is, they got their zoning for residential- mixed use I believe it was, including residential. But it was designed- the project was. Let's see. See, there were six floors, and they divided each floor in two. So there were 12 unites - or 13, there was a little weird thing in the back. One of them I know was an architect's office. Many of them were live-work spaces. Brian Jones, who's a tap dancer, quite an accomplished tap dancer- Again, part of the history of the arts in Providence of the period. He's somebody you should probably talk to because he did some unbelie,!able work.

BA: Is he still around in Providence?

JR: Yeah, I think he's in Exeter now. I got his number at home, I believe. But Brian Jones lived there for instance. Alued Decredico, who's a fairly good name in painting, lived there. Jeff Blidenberg, they say, and Ralph Beckman. Thank you, I got it, Ralph Beckman. You know, and then the building down the street, at 150 Chestnut, was converted to condos, and etcetera.

BA: So did this kind of signify a moving back to the city?

JR: Well this was a real gentrification of the jewelry district - mainly happened because the small jewelry shops went out of business. When major manufacturing moved offshore, these guys who were, you know, tumblers and sodderers and finishers didn't have any jobs.

BA: Of course. Right.

JR: And a whole slew of small operations, mom and pop type operations, were wiped out. Which, urn, led to a reuse of the spaces.

BA: And so did a lot of people who had previously moved because of the tragedy before, did they come back to the city, or were they already lost to thee?

JR: Not necessarily. They were probably pretty much out. I mean they were out of it. Also, this, you know, most of it was done by condos, not by rents, so you really redefined who would be living in the jewelry district because they would have to be willing to make a commitment to own a condo.

BA: Right. A place. Yeah.

JR: Which would mean you have to come up with a down payment and have a day gig. Um, you know some income somehow. So it was a different- You know it was not the struggling artists, as it were, although there were in fact artists who met that, but they were a little more

BA: So it wasn't like the same scene as before?

JR: No, not really. Not. It was a little more mature, I guess is a way to put it. It was grownups, you know, they own things.

BA: [laughs] Make money. Oh dear. So what kind of people, I guess, with the whole people moving out, and other people moving in, did the crowd at Leo's stay the same oro?

JR: Yes. In fact, probably that was the undoing of Leo's. Vb, I did not trade into a younger crowd. And as my good patrons met each other, and teamed up, and had children and whatever, uh, they started not going out as much at night.

BA: Right, right. And so you weren't bringing in new people ftom Brown and RlSD?

JR: I really wasn't- weren't necessarily growing things, although we were, but not fast. And finally- It also got very old for me after-. You know, (when) I closed the place - I'd been open just 30 days short of 20 years.

BA: Wow. Wow.

JR: And I was really tired. And every year in a restaurant is like a dog year, so I figured, 140 years

BA: I mean that's not too long ago.

JR: Yeah well we closed it in '94. You know, and we'd changed ftom being a bar that served chili basically, to uh, served dinners and lunches and things like that. We were very successful for many years. It's just that we finally ran out of steam. Or I did, I guess.

BA: And so, you know, the fringe community, or those people who were involved in this arts scene, slowly started not uequenting Leo's?

JR: Well, yeah. They also- Some of the got successful

BA: Right. People mention Martin Mull

JR: Some of them- Well Marty was never a big - he'd already made the move to California. But Charlie Rocket was a bartender for us for I think three weeks. Well, he got a better gig. It was more of an MC gig which is what he wanted, obviously.

BA: Oh, alright.

JR: But people like Benita Flanders, urn, Vicky Wolf, who was a fabulous painter. Unfortunately, she's now a nurse in New York City. There was a lot oftalent in Providence, and I'm sure there still is; I'm not as aware of it.

BA: Right.

JR: Um, but it was exciting times. And people come up with ideas.

BA: What kind of ideas?

JR: I still have a huge collection of cocktail napkins of people doodling. With some very, very clever things on them. I should dig it out; I'm not sure where it is right now. But it was a very creative feeling to the town then. People were trying things new and different. I guess- I think it was probably the time oflife as much as anything, as far as I'm concerned.

BA: What do you mean by the time oflife? Like age?

JR: Yeah, age-wise. I mean hey, what are we going to do? There's also more to it than that. Well, obviously because of the heavy RlSD influence, which many many creative people came out of that institution, and are still there, and still, I'm sure, doing creative things. But also the time, the politics, the social milieu, was in transition.

BA: How so?

JR: Well, I mean you had the baby boomers, becoming a generation under their ownand voting, becoming a very powerful socio-economic force.

BA: And then the political climate?

JR: [rock music turns on in background at cafe] And the political climate which, after Vietnam, was difficult. Vb, but that's okay. I'm pretty much done here, I think. If you want to have the band play on, that's fine. Is there anything more that you want to ask me?

BA: Yeah, I just have a few more questions, if that's okay.

JR: Sure.

BA: Um, so in terms of service to the community, you know, what would you say Leo's position was?

JR: Well we were a place to hang out, basically. Um, and we were not expensive. We served good food at a good price, and good drinks - very good drinks. We probably could have made a lot of money if I had my potion controlled a little bit better. But then again, people wouldn't have had as much fun.

BA: Yeah, exactly.

JR: Leo's was a place to hang. And it was a very diverse group of people, too, which I thought was the most exciting part of it.

BA: Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you.

JR: Because we had, you know we had a lot of groups coming in there. Not only artists and musician types, but a lot of people in advertising. Late '70's, early '80's, Providence had become kind of a mini ad place - real popular, real talented people in the field. Vb, Woody Kays, urn, Woody Kay, excuse me. I am having trouble with names again. Bob Mariani, those sort of people. And they were lunch/early evening people. Politicians started showing up, led by Buddy, of course. I remember one night when Ed Dupris and Pat were in and, uh, when they finished their meal, the next people I sat at their table were Bruce Sungman and Marjorie Sungrnan. You know, just happened that way. Charlie Best. A lot of journalists were there: Scottie McKay; Kathy Greg who's still at the journal. And of course, my favorite, urn, the columnist - what's his name? Bob Kurr. Bob Kurr was a uequenter. He was quite a character too. But, uh, as I say, it was a real diverse group of people, all intelligent and inquiring and creative.

BA: Were there things that came out of Leo's that were discussed at tables...?

JR: I don't know. I don't know that there's anything that came out of Leo's, per say. Although 116 Chestnut came out of Leo's, I think.

BA: Which is? I'm sorry.

JR: Which is the Hedison Building.

BA: Right.

JR: That became the heart of the present jewelry district -live-work type space. But it was a place where people exchanged ideas, I think in a pretty lively manner. And had a lot of fun. I mean, it was not about thinking great thoughts, okay, lets be honest here - we're all having a cocktail. Okay. But it was a- I think with the mix of people, it was conducive to people exchanging ideas. Really. On a really basic level sometimes fart jokes, I don't know. Of course Lupo- This was the time Lupo went on his great diet. He was a pretty- Lupo used to be a pretty large guy. And still, I mean he's a big guy, but he was a very large guy. And he believed that if you ate it off of somebody else's plate, the calories didn't count. So I mean, he would literally reach over to the table across - not just his own table, but the tables around him. And so there was an exchange of ideas in this process

BA: And food.

JR: And so it was a nice place to hang. I even enjoyed it some nights.

BA: It was busy, though?

JR: Yeah, it was a busy place, but it was a business. But I enjoyed it. Probably enjoyed it more than I should have, uom a totally professional point of view. But, uh, that's what got me interested in it,' was the people aspect.

BA: So do you think you had an advantage coming uom the GCB? And having been involved with people already?

JR: Well I knew people. I knew people very- A lot of them. And I had no question that I'd be successful because there really wasn't an alternative. In fact, the night we opened, there was a line outside the door, because we were supposed to open at seven, and we didn't open 'til eight.

BA: That's reassuring.

JR: Yah. But it's also- It sort of puts the pressure on because then you realize that the first drink you make, you give it to the guy and you say that's one dollar, and he gives you a five and you don't have any change.

BA: [simultaneously} Change.

JR: Yah, a real professional group, as I say we were.

BA: Oh that's great. Wow. So you talked a little bit about, you know, the police coming in and kicking people out at one point - was there a lot of that

JR: Well it was not police action at all. Okay. It was, urn, Merlin Deconte, who was the chief building inspector - was appalled at what had happened and he said, "Look, we can't do this. There's zoning laws and there's a reason for them." And it became a personal safety issue and it had to be done. I don't think there was anyone who said, "Oh, who cares."

BA: So it wasn't perceived as a- 'Cause I know, you know, people have spoken a lot about how at this time there was kind of a tension between authority and people who were more on the fringe

JR: Sure, sure. That was part of the '70's. But I don't think that, uh- I think that people saw it for what it was, which was really a public safety issue.

BA: Right.

JR: And it was unfortunate it had to happen, so that things couldn't have been worked out better, as a solution to the problems that existed. But I don't think there was much choice in the matter. And I think that most people who- They were mad at being displaced. We all are. You know, even if you plan to move, you don't like the actual process very much.

BA: Right. ljust asked because you know, you hear a lot of - the Private Parts Showyou hear about that

JR: The which? Oh the Private Parts Show.

BA: The Private Parts Show. You hear about stuff like that which could be perceived as being

JR: Tempest in a teapot.

BA: [laughs] Indeed, indeed.

JR: I know it's a big constitutional- But it was. There was obviously a lot of "us against them" during this period.

BA: Wow. So after, you know, Leo's, do you mind me asking what you did then? What you're doing now?

JR: Um, I'm trying to think. Well, I opened up a place downtown for a very short time, which was called The Groceria; which was a combination grocery store and restaurant on Weybosset Street right across uom Johnson and Wales. That was not very successful for a nurnber of reasons. Um, it was a little ahead of its time.

BA: Yeah. 'Cause I'm seeing now days that's all there is.

JR: Yah. Well, the thing is, I don't even want to go into downtown, and the politics and the economics of downtown because I will say nasty things about people who have a big stake in things, and I don't want to offend anyone.

BA: Totally fine.

JR: And now actually I'm in the uh- I always thought the last refuge of a scoundrel was patriotism. Isn't that what you've been told? But I find, I think the true last refuge of a scoundrel is real estate, which is what I'm doing now. Okay. Um, which is fine. It's not as exciting as the late sixties and the early seventies, but that's probably just as well. It would probably kill me.

BA: [laughs] And, urn, if this is too personal don't answer

JR: Sure.

BA: But you said that you met your wife- That your wife was on the scene as well? So did you two meet at Leo's?

JR: Well actually my wife, my wife, uh, worked for me in the early- Shortly after we opened she worked for me for a little while.And then she went off to New York to pursue her jewelry career, urn, and she moved back seven or eight years later, and that's when we started going out. So I mean, as I say, she was- Before she left to work for Trafari in New York, she had a studio with I think Janet Pripp, in the Conrad Building.

BA: Which is a good- Providence was the jewelry central.

JR: Yah. It was an exciting time.

BA: And, urn, I had another question. Oh. So Providence now? You know, any thoughts? The scene?

JR: I think Providence is a great town. I really do. I think you know, that the Renaissance [tape recorder clicks oft] This one went off.

BA: Oh, that's good to know. We've been- [trying to flip tape to record on other side.]

JR: Do you need to flip it?

BA: Yes. Okay. [Pushes record] Alright.

JR: Providence has so much potential. I mean, it has so many things going for it. A great housing stock, great buildings, great architecture. It's a real small town. Um

BA: And the arts scene now?

JR: The arts scene now is still very vibrant. To me, personally, it's not as exciting because I'm not in the middle of it. But you know, the things that have been happening in the armory district, and Westminister Street, and Broadway now, as well as downtown. And I think the fact that RlSD is moving across the river is going to make a very big difference on downtown. RlSD- I mean Roger Mandel has a vision, and I think he should be supported on that. Um, 'cause he's a really good college president. I mean, he's got vision, he's got fundraising abilities, and he can make it happen. And moving students downtown is a great idea. It'll only improve the area and I hope that the landlords are wise enough to see that the money is not going to be made the first day. It's a process, and they seem to lose track of that sometimes.

BA: Right. Patience, indeed.

JR: Well, yeah.

Ba: And are you still in touch with people uom-?

JR: Oh yeah. Pretty much. You know, I still see Cheeks, and Chip Young. I'm sorry, I forgot Chip Young. On the ball, and off the wall.

BA: [laughs].

JR: Um, who was a good friend. I don't see him as much 'cause he lives down in Jamestown.

BA: What was his involvement?

JR: Well, whenever we had- When we redid Leo's, it was a, you know, post and beam factory space, basically. So we did things like, you know, sand the posts and beams.

BA: And this was before

JR: Yeah, 'cause we were opening. And that was rather a nasty job. So that, of course, became "Chip work". Um, and we had- We got an old bar out ofMcGoverns, which was a watering hole at the foot of Smith Street. 'Cause Dewey Dufranse had bought it at auction, and he gave it to me, and then we had it stripped. And then of course we had ten thousand pieces that we had to steal wool by hand, which became more Chip work. And, uh, you know, it was a real labor oflove. [half sarcastically] And I would never do it again. I didn't know what I was getting into.

BA: [laughs] Right.

JR: Sometimes stupidity is what it takes.

BA: One more question. You know, you opened Leo's because there was need, and other bars weren't student friendly - is there a particular reason? Is it a generation gap oro?

JR: I think it's probably somewhat generational. I think it was just that, urn, that- I mean at least at Brown there was drinking on campus. You basically didn't leave campus.

BA: Right.

JR: I think what happened, at least with the group of people I attended school with, was that there was a desire to stay on, and not necessarily in a traditional "Well, I'll get married and move to East Greenwich" sort of thing. Or "I wanna live on the Eastside."

BA: Why not?

JR: More it was a counter culture, etcetera. You know, I don't know if you know the Mad Peck's famous postcard - The Providence

BA: I do indeed.

JR: Um, "And most of us live off Hope." And I think that's a great summation of the time. Because that's the way it was. And you know, a lot of people didn't want to go corporate, they didn't want to be eaten up by the establishment. Which is I guess what we would have said back in those days. It sounds a little naIve and foolish now, I realize. And there was a lot of idealism. I don't know if students are as idealistic anymore.

BA: Probably.

JR: I would imagine they are. But I don't' know that they have the opportunity to express it. It's not as easy to express as it was then, because there were these other political factions and uactionalization that was going on.

BA: How so? The war?

JR: The war, and, you know, the divergence of the economy, the war on poverty. You know, the whole drug culture had a whole lot to do with it.

BA: Right.

JR: You know, long hair and wire glasses. [mockingly] Gee, I want to be like John Sebastian. Uh-

BA: It's (idealism, expressing onself) understandable. I've convinced myself that I'll never wear high heels to work.

JR: Oh, okay.

BA: You know, so I guess it was a lot to do with

JR: [peering to the floor] Just checking you shoes now dear. But you'll wear them [heels] to class? Right?

BA: [laughing] No, no.