Interviewee: George Manyan

Interviewer: Greta Pemberton

Interview date: October 21, 2003

GRETA PEMBERTON (GP): We can start with your life if you want, or his life.

GEORGE MANYAN (GM): Well, this really isn't about me. Let me check and see when he was born. [He pulls a drawer out and rifles through some documents] 1917-I got it right here-his old driver's license is here. He was born on May 18th, 1916.

GP: Can I see it?

GM: And uh... in Providence, he was born in the house that he lived in...

GP: He was born in this house?

GM: No, - it was on Norm street actually, it was on-No, it wasn't on Norm street, I've forgotten the street, but uh, he was actually born in the house. And uh... [chuckles]

GP: Do you know that story?

GM: A little bit, but anyway, you know went to Providence schools, and and was, from what I understand, pretty much a misfit. He just-he couldn't adjust very well to school I guess.

GP: How so?

GM: Well, he just kind of wanted to paint. He had an older brother, his older brother was really brilliant, and his older brother kind of carried him through, thropgh I think about the tenth grade of Classical. But the thing that was really important, even though he wasn't an acamadician, he was--his art talent was recognized by the art teacher at Classical. And that's um, his name is up here somewhere [he searches the wall where Kamig has painted a series of names, presumably important influences in his life, all caps: MY MOTHER, DELIUS, JEFFERS, RANDALL, KAFKA, LAO-TZU, RACKHAM] oh-Randall. Asa-I think it was Asa Randall was his art teacher at Classical. And the art teacher recognized his talent, and you know encouraged him, and and really lead Kamig to believe that he-I mean, gave Kamig the confidence in his art, you know, which a good teacher should do.

GP: Yeah.

GM: Unfortunately, these days, if I might put a little political, you know, the same kind of relationship I don't think exists with students these days.

GP: Yeah, yeah.

GM: Anyway, and that got Kamig going and you know, there were various exercises that the teacher would have them do, they, they used to do these Mr. Potato Head things.

GP: What do you mean?

GM: Well, they'd take a potato, like, and and sort of make it into a human or, various shapes and stuff that you know, would bring out the people...

GP: What materials did they...

GM: In pen and ink. I've got some of those, if you want to...

GP: Oh, really?

GM: Oh, yeah, I've got a whole history. Anyway, and, and then uh you know he finally dropped out of school.

GP: When did he...

GM: I think around eleventh grade. But he would stay in touch with the teacher. Apparently I don't know he went after school or what but he still used the teacher as a mentor. He his whole family lived together in the same house, and his mother recognized his talent, and you know and so she, she also encouraged him in the arts. And you know she didn't say, "Oh you, you're not going to school now, go out and work." you know that kind of stuff. He just stayed home and painted! And you know developed his talent. He- and then there was the CCC period. The what- The Civil Conservation Corps. And he appar- he worked for them, as I understand it, for a period, but uh to get paid, there was some deal-he he couldn't be living at home, so he had an apartment on Benefit Street, for fifty cents a week or something.

GP:Wow.

GM: And then he could work for the CCC and they did drawings and stuff apparently. I think-and during the war he taught Morse Code cause he was a he was a ham radio operator as well. So, he taught Morse Code too as part of his service duty I guess because he was 4F from what I understand. Anyway- he just continued developing his talent. He tried all different media, he tried car-uh, sculpting in stone, and you know watercolors, he did etchings, you know there's a lot- he did a lot of etchings, and a lot of people thought that that was really his best medium, but he...Youknow it's like a psychology told me once, when you get, when you feel you've conquered something, you get bored with it. So, he felt he wasn't growing enough, in the etching, uh from what I've-again, these are the things I've learned being his nephew, and you know, being around him. And then , you know, he moved into painting. He did wood carvings and all kinds of stuff. And he always played with them, but those weren't his serious things. His serious-- and and you know as he developed, his serious art was oil painting. And every day, he would paint from nine till about one o'clock in the afternoon. Every day, seven days a week. He wouldn't--he slept on-well, well here, he always had his own place, but he wouldn't socialize or do anything until he had painted cause you know he really had to do that. When he was younger he used to paint even longer, like from eight to two, but as he got older he'd paint from nine till noon or one o'clock. And he did that seven days a week. And then I the afternoon, he would play with all the other things he did. You know, electronics, and he made electronic instruments in the sixties he was making these things you played with your hands and stuff and uh... And he'd earn a few bucks, you know he'd repair some electronic stuff or he'd repair some sculpture or maybe-you know for other people, just to get some money. In terms of his art, he showed in New York for several years, in-again I again I should know this better, and I will at some point cause he's got notes and everything, but probably around the mid forties till the late fifties he showed in New York, at various galleries. And gained some notoriety there. Bur he couldn't he couldn't deal with the crowd, you know? He didn't like that yackety-yak stuff at the shows, at the openings, you know. "Oh, what's this mean, Kamig?"

GP: [laughs]

GM: You know he couldn't do that politicking that's re-often required in the art world.

GP: What kind of politicking?

GM: Well, you know, you got to you know kind of sidle up to the people and you know say, "Well, you know... " he just, he couldn't do that. He -and they'd say you know, "What does that mean, Kamig?" and he'd say, "Well, it means whatever you want it to mean."

GP: [laughs]

GM: You know that isn't... you know people, if they're spending a lot of money for a painting, they want to, you know, there's more to it.

GP: Yeah.

GM: Nothing's honest anymore.

GP: [laughs]

GM: You know? And he couldn't do that. But what he did happen in- through that experience was he picked up a patron-a man that that became very important in his life. And who recognized his talent. And would you know- if Kamig got in financial trouble the guy would buy a painting or the guy would say, you know "Make me something special," you know "carve me something," or...

GP: What was the guy's name?

GM: His name was uh, Larry Parker. I believe he's still alive.

GP: Oh!

GM: Yeah. In fact, I'm remiss myself in not keeping in touch with him. Because I know him very well, and he has you know a lot of Kamig's artwork.

GP: Is he from Providence, or New York or...?

GM: No he's-Well, he's a New Yorker and a Connecticut guy.

GP: okay.

GM: Um, And I-but anyway, then you know he showed a few times in Providence, but again, he wasn't very well received here. The old reviewer was Bradford Sworn...

GP: He was the reviewer for the Pro Jo or...

GM: Yeah. And you know Sw-he... Kamig didn't like Sworn and Sworn didn't like Kamig, and then he set up Sworn one day, and uh [chuckles] he uh um you know Sworn loved all those Pollock-Jackson Pollock and all that stuff, and you know those people, and uh you know [chuckles] uh Kamig one day, I guess he made two etchings, as I understand the story, and they were very similar, but different.

GP: Uh huh.

GM: Distinct plates. And he printed them both and put them in the same show. And, you know, Bradford Sworn put his foot in his mouth cause he said something like, "You can see how different techniques of inking a plate can create different effects" or something

GP: Uh huh.

GM: And you know, then Kamig wrote an editorial back saying, you know

GP: This guy doesn't know what he's talking about...

GM: Yeah, yeah, if he had any brains he's realize they were two plates and stuff.

GP: [laughs]

GM: Uh anyway, so,

GP: Do you might have-do you think you might have a copy of those...

GM: I probably do somewhere. I ju-the Journal will have a file on Kamig. Cause they they-when he died they they had a lot of stuff.

GP: Mm.

GM: Um, they did a couple articles on this house even.

GP: Really?

GM: Yeah, over the years. So they'll have a file down there. Uh, anyway, and then you know and then after you know he always lived with his mother-in the same house. They-it was a three tenement over on Woodbine St. Then when-after she died, you know he bought this house on his own, and that's when he really, he just really blossomed. And, you know, did all this creative-he was really-did a ton of stuff in the early 60's I believe it was around, uh, around '62 or 3 or 4 he bought this house.

GP: mm.

GM: Uh, and uh, you know, and in terms of selling his art, I will show you-the the gallery is in there-and he got-you know, he would sell privately. By word of mouth. And people would come to the house here, and there were certain people that always wanted his stuff, and so you know he'd call them and say you know, "I've got a nice canvas," and stuff like that, and you know so there were a lot of key people that that had a lot ofhis artwork.

GP: So he bought this house on the proceeds of selling paintings?

GM: Yeah, basically. Yeah. I think initially his mentor there, Larry, helped him.

GP: Mm hmm. Was, was Larry an artist as well?

GM: No. No, he's a professor or-ofuh history actually. I don't know what he's doing now. He's probably retired now, but he was a pretty interesting guy. He was into a lot of stuff. And he was, I think he was a Civil War Historian or something.

GP: Oh wow.

GM: But um, and collected guns and, you know. Oh-and important part of Kamig that I've left out was uh every summer he used to go to uh Damascove, an island off of the coast of Maine, and he'd paint all summer up there and he lived basically like a hermit. The island had- you know, a coast guard station on it in the old days, and there were three fishermen that that-there were just shacks-and there were uh three fishermen that had shacks there, and his place, and there was an old farmhouse. And you know, Kamig would basically eat off the land, and paint in pretty much isolation. He'd go into Booth Bay once a week and take a shower and there was a gallery there that uh you know knew Kamig and would show his work And Kamig would do some little st- not- he didn't even consider them art, but they were little things for the tourists. Little carvings out of wood and stuff. And he would make these little scenes of-- you know like a little fishing shack on the water and stuff. And you know, he'd [chuckles] sell some of that stuff to tourists. Uh, and then he'd Come back. You know he'd go from basically Memorial Day to Labor Day. And he had an old Model A Ford. And he'd bring all his paintings back with him and he did that for years until he bought this house.

GP: huh. How did he get the-the shack on the island?

GM: I don't know how he got into that really. I've been up there numerous times and you know I met the fishermen, I knew the fishermen and everybody, everything...

GP: Do you remember what they were like? Specifically?

GM: Oh yeah. Oh, they were great. Oh they were real just down east fishermen. I mean Ace was drunk, you know, drunk all the time. And they start to paint their boat-Ace's boat, he was-they were lobstermen. And you know [chuckles] Ace-his boat was like always half-painted. You know he just wouldn't finish it. In fact I went up there once, I haven't been up there in a while, I wasand I went in to town, you know, I wanted to get out to the island, so I went to where the guys came in with their lobsters, and Ace had just came in. "Gosh, you know, hi!" he said [chuckles] He, he you know he was happy to see me, "Go on! Have a drink." You know they always had booze on the boat.

GP: [laughs]

GM: I get on the boat, and you know we're drinking, having a few drinks, and uh so he said, "So I got some things to do, you know, I got to go to the bank or whatever," he said, "You go up and get another bottle at the liquor store. Anyways, so I went up. I'm coming back from the liquor store, in Booth Bay the liquor store was up on the hill like-anyway. I'm coming back and the cops got Ace under arrest! And I said, "What happened?" Well, Ace was in the phone booth I guess, making a call or something. I don't know. And this new cop was in town, he was a big guy, and Ace just started a fight with him. You know, said, you know, "Kick your ass" or whatever. Anyway, well he got pretty belligerent, so the cop arrested him. [Chuckles] Anyway, you know and I bailed out Ace. And finally after, I don't know maybe an hour or two or something, I got him out, and bailed him out and, you know, got him back to the boat. And got back to the island. But that was Ace, I mean that wasn't atypical of him. I didn't really realizehe'd been drinking apparently all the way in.

GP: Oh, wow.

GM: It's a few miles, to the island. And uh, I guess he'd been tanking-you know, sippin' the booze... Anyway, but uh, but that's the kind of thing Ace was. And they always had lobsters. You know, they'd eat lobster for breakfast. You know, all the time. Anyway, and when Kamig bought this house, it was funny because when Kamig bought this house, Kamig was always-he wasn't ever religious, but he always felt, you know, there were mysterious things happen. And uh, he was really in a dilemma after he bought this house, because he really didn't want to go back to Booth Bay anymore. Because you know, he'd started to fix everything up, and, you know the house was really going great, And uh, what used to happen was, every-this was a good sized island up there, but there were no trees on it. And uh, every spring, Ace and the fishermen used to burn the grass!

GP: Why?

GM: Just, I'm not sure why. Just so no trees grew maybe, or whatever. Or just to create some nutrients for the grass, or whatever. Anyway, and they'd done it for years. And that-that year, they knew the weather and everything, they touched off the grass. And the wind changed directions, and it took down all of Kamig's cabin.

GP: [gasp]

GM: Burned it right down. And, and it was loaded with ammunition. Cause they always had black powder and they used to shoot a lot up there.

GP: Forhunting?

GM: No! There was nothing to hunt!

GP: Just for fun?

GM: They'd just target shoot, yeah just for fun. And they had cannons and stuff you know and they'd shoot cannons off...

GP: [laughs]

GM: But, you know, actually they had fire equipment, but with the shells going off, with all that stuff exploding, they just let it burn. He never went back. That was the first summer he owned this house. And so the problem was solved for him. He never went back up there again at all after that. And then, you know he just, he stayed here. He loved this house. There were great-he used to have great parties, Fridays and Saturday nights. Usually you know, when he moved here he made it by invitation kind of, when he was in his other place it was kind of open house, you know, everybody used to go up there. I mean, you know, dignitaries and musicians and you know...

GP: Do you remember anyone in particular?

GM: Oh yeah, yeah. Louis Armstrong was up there, there was a club that used to be over where the--- on Randall Street. It was called the Celebrity Club.

GP: Mm hmm. Yeah, I've heard of it.

GM: Yeah, yeah it's in the archives somewhere. It was a wonderful club. It was um, it was really integrated. That was kind of a black section, and it was a interesting club, because there was just a normal barroom in the front that was open every day of the week. And all the rummies were in there-all the black guys, you know, and I used to-I knew about it, cause I used to go in the front bar. Most people, whites wouldn't go in there-but I used to, when I was in the Navy I used to bring some black kids in cause I had a car, and we'd start-they'd say come on in, we'll buy you a drink. You know, so I'd go in, I got to know some of the people there. But what would happen in son the weekends, or even sometimes during the week, if some celebrity was in town. But in those days it was mostly on the weekend. There wasn't much entertainment during the week. Um, uh, you know they'd have everybody! In the back there was a big back room, you know with a stage and everything. And it was, it was the place to be in Providence. I mean that was the only place that that I remember, that really had, you know, top flight entertainment. Lonis Armstrong, and you know, all the people were there. And the word would get around that there's an after-an after hours thing up at Kamig's-he'd be having a party, every Friday night was open house. Which actually, that was 15 Woodbine, that's where he lived then with hi mother and everybody. He had the whole, the third floor. But, you know it was crazy. It was great fun. I was a kid! I lived on the first floor, and I'd be peeking at all the people going up there, man did I want to be up there! But my [chuckles] my mother wouldn't let me. But anyway...

GP: Who else do you remember going?

GM: Oh, you know, there were a lot of people from Providence who went up there. There are other people that actually remember more of that stuff than I do, cause a lot of the time-I wasn't really back in Providence till after I got out of high school. I grew up in New Hampshire. I was born here, but we moved up to New Hampshire when I was seven, and then I was back in the Navy again when I was 18, and I was stationed at , so then I got back into the thing, so you know, there's 10, 15 years that I wasn't around that much. I mean we'd corne every once and a while and visit, but you know there are other people that probably could tell you more of that.

GP: Mm hm. What did the parties sound like from the first floor?

GM: Oh, they, well, they started out like actually Kamig's brother, Myron, started the parties. Cause Kamig was intrigued with electronics. And TVs. So-I know, that's who... anyway, and so Kamig had one of the first TV s in town. He was friendly with a guy that uh on Kennedy Plazathere used to be an electronics store-Lowe's. L-O-W-E-S I think it is. And Kamigwas friendly with the guy that owned it because of his electronics interest. And you know, Kamig knew TV s were coming. Well over at Lowe's, Kamig would trade paintings for a lot of stuff. So Kamig had one of the first TVs cause he traded a painting to the Lowe's for a new TV.

GP:Huh.

GM: Now these are like, you know, like this big [he holds his hands about 8 inches apart].

GP: yeah.

GM: But Kamig had one of the first ones. Well, Kamig's older brother Myron was a gambler. And it all ties together!

GP: (laughs)

GM: Because Myron would bet on the Friday night fights. There were boxing matches on Friday nights. So Myron said, you know, "let's have a few people up, we gotta watch the thing I gotta bet on it. " You know, so it started out. And Myron did live with Kamig in one end of the building for a while. But, and they would have dinner together and after dinner they would play chess-they were both wonderful chess players. Kamig used to belong to the Rhode Island chess club. And they played chess, and you know there'd be usually a couple people for dinner, and then you know more people would start coming in and then it just you know, it got around to it was like open house at 15 Woodbine. And a lot of, you know, tons or people came, and all kinds of stories started out of it, and uh you know and [chuckles] anyway...

GP: Can you remember any of those stories?

GM: Oh, no, there's all kinds of... just-a lot of them reverberated around sexuality those days...

GP: That's okay!

GM: No! I know.

GP: [laughs]

GM: You know, Kamig liked the women. And he was very handsome; I got pictures I can show you, but... And uh, you know, he always had... women. Around. And often, you know, various days of the week he'd say, "don't come over, at four o'clock in the afternoon... "

GP: [laughs]

GM: Because, you know, he never worked! Well, well he did for a very short period. He actually got married.

GP:Wow.

GM: [chuckles] And it lasted him-they knew each other for years-they finally get married and she makes him go to work! Well that lasted for about two months, and he said, you know, "I'm not working." You know, anyway...

GP: Where did she make him work?

GM: He worked at a frame shop, doing picture framing for a mend who did his picture framing, It was Allen [Alan?] Studios-it used to be where, uh, where-there's a gallery there now. Right across from Adler's hardware.

GP: Okay.

GM: and uh, and anyway, so you know, he got back to being his own person after that. But that was the only time he worked.

GP: What was his wife-his brief wife's name?

GM: Well she's an artist too! She's a very good artist too in fact. She's-her name is Jane Motley. She's still around. And she's, well, she's around, she's alive. You know, I mean, and she was younger than he was of course. But she's a very, a very competent artist. And-where were we going with this?

GP: You were telling me stories about crazy sexuality at parties...

GM: Oh, oh yeah. So anyway when, then after I got out of the navy I was I was, you know Kamig was still living at 15 Woodbine, so I started living there again, there on the first floor, I rented one of the apartments, it was a three tenement. Anyway, and I was pumping gas, there was a gas station at the comer and you know it was-it was my cousin, had the station, and you know and these people would come in and they'd start telling stories. You know, [in a hushed voice] "You know what goes on at 15 Woodbine?" I said, "No! What goes on?" You know, "Oh, they're having sex out in the back under the trees..."

GP: [laughs]

GM: and, all these crazy things! And, you know granted, Kamig was sexual, but it never, that I know of, ever got that raunchy. But-they thought all kinds of-that he was making pornography or something. And that kind of stuff. But you know, they were experimenting with a lot of stuff. I mean, artists are curious. They experiment with stuff.

GP: Yeah.

GM: And, they were, you know, the pot and all this stuff in the early early days, and you know there was another mend that was a mend of Timothy Leary's up at Harvard. And in fact he just died this winter, he was a neat guy.

GP: Was he

GM: I kept in touch with a lot of those guys because ofKamig. His name was, well [laughs] we called him Ahab. Ahab Bedrosian.

GP: Ahab the Drosian?

GM: Bed-rosian. His real name was Martin Bourne (?). And Ahab was a brilliant, brilliant guy. He graduated from Brown. But he was crazy! I mean, you know he was just, you know, he functioned, but in a world that I don't think anyone understands. And uh...

GP: What do you mean?

GM: Well, he just you know he-he just it's a kind of, well, when he died I met his kids, I knew his kids, and his kids couldn't figure him out. You know, that kind of-but he loved his kids. His kids didn't realize how much they loved-he loved them. But uh, but he was just a - he's just an expert in microscopes and telescopes. It was his thing. And he used to buy them and fix them and sell them-- resell them. You know, the whole kind. I mean people knew his name - he mail ordered stuff and-you know and, but he knew Timothy Leary! Cause he used to go up to Cambridge a lot, and I-I don't know how he had connections up there, and when Timothy Leary was playing around with LSD. And you know, he could get LSD from Timothy Leary. And uh, and another guy was hitched up with Leary at the time that often doesn't get much notoriety, a guy named Alpert. He was a rich kid that-his father used to own the Boston and Maine Railroad. I don't know his first name, but anyway, you know, and then when Harvard threw Leary out, Har-and Leary got his mansion there-he had a mansion or something up there, and you know Ahab would go up there and they'd play around with the LSD and you know, Ahab would bring some back. And in those days they'd have it on a sugarcube. [TAPE BREAK]

GM: So, you know, uh, Ahab brought some back, and you know, Ahab tried it, and you know, again, what-I don't know this first hand, but apparently, although these guys were experimenting, they weren't dumb, and apparently there's an antidote for LSD if you have a bad trip.

GP:Huh.

GM: And so, you know Kamig tried it with people around, and the antidote, maybe he didn't have a good trip, and took the antidote uh, I think it's some amino acid or something, I don't remember the chemistry of it, but you know a lot of those people were trying pot and that kind of stuff. And you know probably, well I'm sure at some point some mescaline and you know the peyotes and those kind of things had been around, but um uh, for Kamig it didn't have any effect. I mean he just he didn't pursue it at all.

GP: Yeah.

GM: Uh, once his curiosity was fulfilled. But um, anyway, you know and them the-he just painted. And then you know when he moved here, you know he had, you know he changed the open house things, you know and it was by invitation only at that point. I mean if someone had a really good mend, or something, they could bring him-them over, but uh, um.

GP: You were still on the invitation list then?

GM: Pardon me?

GP: You were still on the invitation list?

GM: Oh yeah I could come out, I'm family. Oh, yeah no, I could come-- come anytime, except you know, certain afternoons, [both laugh] you didn't come. But anyway. And he painted, and-the house got broken into a couple times. And after that, he just-he stopped going out at night. Someone seemed to know whenever he went out, you know, almost. And uh, I guess it got broken into twice.

GP: What kind of things did they take?

GM: Uh, well, they knew-somehow they knew he had a gun collection. They took all his guns-that was in the early 70s, when the Black Panthers were around, and, you know I was teaching at Hope at the time, and those-those guns were taken by local people, you know, so

GP: They were historical guns?

GM: Some were. Oh there were some very unique guns. They wouldn't have even understood them. There were some custom made-[knock at the door] Come on in! [door opens]