Interviewee: William S. Yellow Robe, Jr.

Interviewer: Sage Morgan-Hubbard

Interview date: November 1, 2002

SMH: Can you tell me where you are from and what life growing up was like for you?

WYR: I come from a small community known as Winford (sp?), Montana. I am Assiniboine and African American. I hadn't really left the reservation till the age of is when I went to school at Northern Montana College. I had a hell of a time with school I think that had to do with the fact that I had really dramatic moments in school. I remember in second grade when my cousin Elda Forward and I were arrested by the county sheriff. We were taken back home because we couldn't stand school, we would not stay in school. And then in 4th grade, I had a teacher who asked me to stand in front of the class and write all 50 states in alphabetical order and I missed spelled Tennessee and she grabbed me by the hair, swung me around to face the class and said "Is that all you damn Indians do is sit behind your teachers and do beadwork?" And ever since then, it has been very difficult for me to trust institutions. Especially academic because: What are you being taught? Both my father and mother didn't finish school. My father went as far as second grade education, as soon as second grade came along he said he had a choice of going out and staying and he left. My mother went as far as a freshman in high school but she had to drop out to take care of her mother who had gone blind with diabetes. They were both well educated in the system of life. They had an extraordinary sense of common sense about them, that, you know, as far as being street wise-- they were very streetwise. They knew how to hustle, going down the streets...they knew what was phony and they knew what was real. For them they had a strong morality. They knew what the world really is and they were survivors of that world...

SMH: Can we revisit just a little bit about what you had said about race and you father being African American and the racism that you experienced?

WYR: Um, my grandmother, was originally... There are 2 stories about her; one is the record that the agency and Catholic Church hold and then what we all were told about her birth. She was an abandoned child. Now, as to how she was abandoned or for what reasons she was abandoned I never found out, the story came to me when I was much older and she had already passed on. One story is that the band of Assiniboine that she was with left her on the parry because at the time a lot of families and tribes went from reservation to reservation and sometimes they were whipped out--I mean an example of that was Wounded Knee...So, what happened was that my grandmother was abandoned and one story was that she was part Black. She was picked up by Jesuit priests and they raised her there in the missionary. The Jesuit priests had the first colonial school on an Assiniboine Indian reservation. And she was part of thaLand it was her and my father who was part Black. My mother is what is known as a full blood, a fullblooded Native American. And she was very fluent in the Assiniboine language and culture and traditions. My father was also very fluent in the Assiniboine language and traditions. And he was very fluent in 2 languages... Families are organized where some families have two sets of kids. I have had cousins where a largepart of the kids have been fathered by different fathers and they all have different last names. My family is the same way. We have 3 different last names. And some kids have different fathers. But because some of us were full blooded and others were part 'other', we were raised a different way and there was a lot of animosity and distrust. As I mentioned earlier, one of my sisters referred to my father that he hated her cause she wasn't 'part nigger' like he was...and that was something I was raised with. The colonialist states are all around but growing up in the mid-west there wasn't an African American community to turn to for support. On my reservation it was basically Indian and white. 50, there were white breeds and if they were dissatisfied in how they were being treated in the Indian community they could turn to the white community and for us there was absolutely no other community that we could go to for support. 5MH: You mentioned that you had difficulty with educational communities-How did you become interested in acting and that path?

WYR: I think it was because in sixth grade, I had problems staying in school and I had a wonderful teacher--I would skip school and go hide at my grandmother's house, and she tracked me down and I was outside and I come in and I see there is my teacher and she says "I thought you were sick?" and I thought "Oh boy she is going to call the deputy sheriff and we are going to have a scene" and it didn't happen, she said "I want you to come back to school. Give it a try." And that is when I wrote my first play, when I was in 6ttJ grade. And they were adaptations, one on Cleopatra, and the other on Hercules. And that is when I started writing and when I started acting. That is when a lot of my friends were into basketball, shop, cars, but we couldn't afford a car, we couldn't afford a lot of that stuff so...I went into theater just because of the fact that I could work with this art form and not have anybody take it away from me. You know, it is not outlawed yet! I mean, my brother is extraordinary, Elvin Yellow Robe, he developed beadwork, phenomenal beadwork, he tanned his own hide and uh, he speaks 5 Native languages but he only has a gttJ grade education. And because in our family of 9 there are only 2 of us that have graduated with a high school diploma and I am one...What is happening is that I found something that has provided a vessel for my expression but it was also a way of dealing with things--where growing up they were isolated and it was hard to go to other kids and say"Yeah I am Native but, you know, as an African American I feel this way..." and it was something my mother always tried to deal with too because we had different styles of living.To give you an example of our differences, again, I mentioned the records, my father and mother collected these old songs that were recorded by Kenny records, and then also we have a large collection of Duke Ellington because my father listened to Jazz...and our diet, I mean, I am on a reservation and we were eating ham hock, collard greens--We were eating soul food, so I mean, we didn't know how different it was until I invited a friend of mine to dinner at my house and we had oxtail with rice cooking and we had this traditional baking powder bread being made and we sat down and my friend said that he knew the powder bread and rice but he didn't know what ox tail was. He had never ate it-- he never had it. There were times that we had just traditional meals but my father always had a flavor for soul food and we were eating soul food on a reservation and that was a big thing at the time I was in high school, all the way up through high school and in my early years of college I didn't realize that and now that I am older I am beginning to look at that more and reflect on it now it is different and at the same time I have to watch my anger because I get kind of upset at the breeds and when they complain about the difficulties I always step up and say at least they could play white and when you are part Black you can't do that. And they stick up and out and you see that is the thing that I got in a large trouble with the Native American community...because they were taking the expression, "being raised of both worlds". And they would say, well, that means being born part white and part Native ---and how I understood being raised in both world as a very stringent conservative traditional world and following traditions and then you also have all the contemporary values of the modern worlds and you have to strike a balance between the two. It had nothing to do with race. It had nothing to do with the color of your skin; it was these virtues, these values that are part of your life. As human beings, you are trying to form a bond of life for yourself. That is what it meant to be part of both worlds, not to be part white and part Native... And then you have this large chasm where lots of people had to pick white over Native and how you were going to raise your children and where was your position of being a part of the universe, how were you going to live? And how did you determine your priorities? --And eventually that was what you were going to pass on to your family, your future-So, that's what the difference was, but the Native American literature world had a lot of criticism because for a long time, if you were a breed it meant that you have 'the best of both worlds' and being a breed was something that was very honorable because you could take one world and another world and you could be the bridge between the two...But at the same time, you had to be responsible for one world and for the elders there were so many paths to take and you had to pick one and stay with it. That is the hardest thing to do. Because once you pick a path, you have to stay on that path and travel down that path and it makes it more difficult but also it comes down to the basic question of what it means to be a good human being and there are some people who don't have that problem- but as far as the racism in this country it always amazed me that we cry about racism but at the same time we are the biggest practitioners of it, sustained racism. We sustained the anger and I was thinking about it, every peace person that we have had, bad things come from our nation. They (the peace people) have been assassinated and I was thinking that for Native people, every Native leader that we have had, ever leader that we have had that have been geared to promoting their nation have been assassinated somehow.

SMH: Well, you talked about activism a bit, how did the AIM movement influence you? Sounds like you were a little young to be very much involved with that but...

WYR: No, but I had older brothers that were. Let me tell you something about the American Indian Movement, and this is going to upset a lot of people but basically they have had no influence on my life. I was 12 when the Wounded Knee, well, 13, when the Wounded Knee takeover happened and my brother was part of the Ft. Washington takeover in Washington in 1975/1973, that they had in Washington and he left. And long before there was AIM, I actually had my mother and father to follow--My mother used to say things such as the prayers that I shared on Tuesday night, that "I am waiting for a time when we can be ourselves in our own homeland" --and see, I never really understood what meant but now I do-the freedom to be human beings in this land and not regarded as novelty, or an exotic being, or a noble savage, and it was that, that was passed on through my mother and father.The American Indian Movement was such a controversial thing, simply because the fact that the national press saw these guys as militants, the clinched fists, the AK47s, the burning the flag...but growing up on the reservation, when I saw AIM members a lot of times they were drunk-they were drunk most of the time. And they would get into fights-and the women they'd date, they would beat them up, and they were always going after white women, and there'd always be one white woman, one blond white woman on the edge that was basically the communal wife for most of these guys-I mean, that's a very harsh statement to make, but that's the basic truth-rve seen Native families that had virtually no money but they gave money to support them and to see these guys take that money and the next night they're in the bars-that's what AIM means to me. And then to have AIM members criticize Native actors in Hollywood for basically selling out for working in the movies-and now Dennis Banks and Russell are two of the most famous Native stars in this country and have Russell Means say Disney's "Pocahontas" movie, the "Pocahontas" movie is the quintessential Native movie, just horrifies me-its that duality again-its that set duality of what we would like to have happen and what is really happening-and see I catch myself during that too, I mean, at one point I really didn't want to do this interview because I have been interviewed by a lot of other college students, but this is the first time that I have ever had a chance to address these issues-I hope you're not freaked out by it. But yeah, there is a real sharp duality between what we would like to believe and what is really happening. There are two members of AIM that I do respect deeply and one is John Vidal -John Vidal for me has always been sincere-he has given himself to this community wherever he is at- and the Jail Court Brothers-They are in Minneapolis-they've always stayed in Minneapolis-they haven't done the world tour trying to sell AIM-they are very loyal to Minneapolis, I have deep respect for those two men, but the rest of the AIM members-sometimes I wonder why they did it in the first place-but I think that its not just AIM-right now you have quite a bit of information in the African American community about the Black Panthers-we have virtually no literature about the American Indian Movement by their members because I don't think that they see themselves as being sustained for so long-and the real tragedy is this that on the leadership end we need a national drive to help sustain the Indigenous nation because the war against colonialism is still going on-the fight for existence and survival in this country continues onto today, whether it be environmental, religious, education, law--the war still goes on-and you need prominent leaders to provide some sort of leadership on how to approach these problems--and these guys, unfortunately, have gotten into Hollywood. They are now recording their own CDs...on our music, which I don't take away, but there Is still a lot of work to be done.

SMH: You mentioned the Black panthers-has any of the Black Nationalist or Civil Rights movements-had an effect on you?

WYR: Yes, absolutely! I was very much influenced by Rev. Martin Luther King. But who actually "woke me up" was Malcolm X ...(Iaughs)

SMH: Me too! (Laughs)

WYR: Malcolm woke me up-in fact, it was about two summers ago that I read the autobiography for the second time, and I started highlighting a lot about what he was saying and then I went deeper and started reading his speeches and other biographies written about Malcolm and then about people he'd written about-Cleaver and Baldwin-I read their work- and really being touched by Malcolm and I believe a lot of what he says is true--- but see, he became a man of peace, in the end, which was his downfall-because basically, he put a big target on himself and in a violent country, of course they are going to kill him...they did the same thing to King, a man of peace, and they killed him too. So that scared me, especially in this day and age, in talking of peace, and being a person of color in this country, you don't last long. But Malcolm was more influential because he was the one that really confronted the issue of colonialism in this continent-but also, he really was the one who focused the whole concept of duality, which was, you know, if we have 'all men were created equal', then why did we have a 14th Amendment, why did we have a 16th Amendment? I use that questioning technique to do lectures--if we were free, then why did we need the civil rights act of 1968 which finally gave us the right to practice our religion-if we were already truly free in this country-yet we have had a large amount of Native American men and women who fought in every major war for these here United States, but still we only got the right to vote until 1968 with the passage of the civil rights act-and where are we now? Why is it that everyone in the world wants to replicate our culture, yet when we complain about our genuine problems, no one wants to hear it? Why is that everyone wants to wear turquoise but really doesn't want to hear that our reservations are undergoing a severe economic crisis and are largely in poverty. Why is it that we learn in English, but not in Spanish, and no one wants to learn our Native languages? Every educational bill that talks about our learning and preserving our Native languages has been defeated...why is that? How is this freedom of speech? And again, why is it that all of us sit back and allow it to happen? Because they think it's too aggressive. You know passive aggression-being passive-can only get you so far...but these issues need to come out-seek the sunlight-as Malcolm used to say Malcolm was instrumental in a lot what I believe in and a lot of how I approach things-these are things that...You know, Malcolm has influence me...now that I am not so worried about going out into the university systems, I am more concerned about going out into the reservation community and talking with them-so, I have turned my back on mainstream, to a point, because I am more concerned about Native Nations getting this information and becoming aware of it-and again, I had a conversation with another gentleman last night, another gentleman about this issue, and I said, one of the quotes that I love from Malcolm and I use it in my own work is that help the AfricanAmerican community 'By any means necessary', and that is how I regard my work with indigenous communities, 'By any means necessary', so if it means I have work with someone who is not Native American, I will do it--Because, as long as it brings about some kind of improvement, or enhancement, or enlightenment for indigenous people, I have no problem. So, as far as getting help from anyone else, I will take the help, because there is room for help, and hopefully a lot of the problems will be solved, or at least, the problem will be brought out...because there are problems now that are hiding and exist In darkness only, and it's about time these things were brought to the light and people to view them.

SMH: Can you talk a little bit about how your playwriting and art deal (even a little bit) with these issues of activism and about the groups you started...theatre groups...

WYR: I started theatre because basically in high school I had taken a course in Montana history and my teacher had said that basically the Assiniboine tribe no longer existed--In the book it said that the Assiniboine no longer existed and that really threw me off because I was like I live here on the Assiniboine reservation and how could we not exist? --So, a big purpose of mine working with theater was to get the name of my people out there. So, every time I wrote a play or anytime at a reading or co-production I would have 'William Yellow Robe Jr. Assiniboine playwright' not 'Indian playwright'. So when contemporary or mainstream theater companies started saying 'Indian' I would call them and say no it is not Indian, it is Assiniboine and I would teach them how to spell it and that was reviving my tribal name but also the tribe's name. And in mainstream it makes them know that we are alive-- and so, a lot of my work was first: anger--dealing with a lot of issues growing up, and then the second part of my work was a healing process-- that is where I am at now. The reason why I work with theater is that in dealing with Indigenous issues, theater is the most versatile way. It is entertaining people, educating people, and no one can get hurt--no blood shed thru guns, thru violence-so, it is a peaceful art form, special for Indigenous people-- and I always have the question: would I chose theater or did theater choose me? -So, I go thru this discussion and there are sometimes that I want to say, you know, I am tired with competing with Hollywood because there are a lot of new actors who have bona fide major films on their resume but they are reading and not at that great level or they can't really do the theater work because they don't have the discipline to carry through a 4 week or 6 week production, they just physically don't have it. --And it would turn into this whole question of do I look Indian? -the icon you know- Do I need to have my hair in two braids or one braid-- is my skin dark enough, my eyes big enough? -- They get too attached to the Hollywood image and in theater, it is just disastress. I actually have had a lot of actors leave me and say, 'You know what is wrong with your plays, it is too damn anger' because when I write I make people think about it-- it is like why should I care because they are not even here if they cared they would be here and they are not. What I care about is how are the Native people going to think about it, that is my first and foremost concern. I remember last year I had a collection of my one act plays, for the University of Okalahoma, a collection of five one-act plays that I wrote called, When The Pavement Ends, and people were asking me, my friends were asking me, 'what do you think of the reviews?' And I said, 'I really don't care about the reviews', but what I said was you know, 'I care about what opinions the people of Fort Peck are going to have when this book is released'. Because some of this is based on that life and more about what my family will think of these plays than what a theater reviewer would consider or think or publish and that is the way my work has always been. And at the same time, you know there are two things that used to guide my life, one was that, if anything ever happens to me I will have a resting place back at home with my people and whatever happens to me wherever happens to me my body will just rest with my people and I will be luck y to lay with the bones of my grandfather, my bones will land and that is where I will be when my life is done and I believe in that. And the second thing is, when I was younger, I would say, you want would impress me? Pull a million dollars out of my pocket right now... but because of the experience I have had on the streets that experience doesn't change someone from pulling the trigger. And if you want to impress me, please don't pull the trigger. There is nothing like having a 17 year old kid pull a 9 millimeter on you who doesn't even know you and might shot you and that is a real possibility and decides not to because of some other outside force, a friend calling him away to back down, that is one of the expressions I live with now is if you want to impress me, please don't pull the trigger, if the situation is that extreme, please don't pull the trigger and that can impress me so that is an influence on my life to so theater is a realm of inspiration.

For Indigenous people to ask questions like 'why is the world this way?' and one of the most important questions is 'how do we change it?' So its, my whole deal is, this is the problem, 'why does this problems exist?' I am hoping that the audience will leave with another question which is 'how do we change it?' What can I do to begin to make changes and also to put into their minds and hearts and trace that there is an unlimited amount of possibilities. So that we can get out of the past in the aggressive approach and that defeatist approach that we had on a lot of issues and I really, I say that not because I am a spokes person for all Native people but because they are just my personal observations. And that passive aggressiveness exists and we come from a tradition of people, my own kin that come form people where you have to be honest. You have to be honest--there is no manipulation. Man to man says you can't be manipulated, you have to be very honest and sometimes that is going to come true. Cause what you see and what you feel might not be right but you have to be honest about it because if you are not you can't be felt.

SMH: You were talking about duality a lot and the question that came up on Tuesday about self and community and how you work that out in your work and art?

WYR: Well, it is very hard because, we want to pour gasoline on the fire but at the same time we want to burn the fire out so that is can burn for a long time--at the same time there is hope that you will depend upon it abut what are you going to use to burn the fire..J don't write magical mystery tours for the medicine shows but at the same time I don't write about the past because it is about time that we stop living as antiquities and start living as contemporary peoples with contemporary problems and Issues so I do a lot of work with contemporary problems and issues but I don't use, the same structure I use, I do kitchen sink dramas, I use poetic structures I use episodic structures I use whatever structure I need to tell the story. So I you know, it drives a lot of the people who I work with crazy because I am always doing something new and that is because the issues that I am dealing with require something different, or the story that I am telling requires a different structure. It won't fit in a structure. When I started as a formal playwright, taking playwriting classes I had a lot of trouble with the professor outside of my path, who said that, 'you know it is interesting that you are developing the structure because you have no such style but the voices are still there and your voice is still there'--- and that is because as a Native person I always try to keep my heart present and when I say heart I am not talking so much about the American romantization of the heart, I am also talking about the through that was giving to me by the community, by may parents so when you see my voice or you hear my heart within my work it is based on a several different influences, not only my self but several different, it Is a collection. It is a collective force so that probably is the strongest thing where I get a professor that says you have to develop your own voice, your own style and I get that but it is like, yeah I get it but I also and not going to forget your influences and there was one thing that I always loved and it was, that is when you have the Native American community, George Wolf say that 'you have to honor the source'. You know, you have to honor the source and I really believe that. So, that is how I have been able to approach a lot of the issues, You see it has been very narrow field of Native/ (slash) Indigenous theater in this country and because we are still regarded as a novelty and it was until 1830 when they took Native people and they dressed them in glitter and praised them around.

SMH: Going along with that, I was wondering the differences between writing with Western theater concepts and other, like the group that you created, as a counter from the boxes that Western theater puts you in?

WYR: Well, it is very difficult, because actually there was always question about whether I would get upset about non-Native writers who wrote about Native and about 20 years ago I used to be angry but not any more, I find it interesting that there is a lack of fulfillment from their own culture that they have to reach out and appropriate from someone else's culture and at the same time, you see, my very first professional play was with the Montana Rep and it was with a book turned musical called "Harvest" based on three generations of white farmers in Montana and there was such an outrage that the white community in Montana that this Native guy had written about white farmers-- and I thought, well, I am from Montana I was asked by a 10callV reported outright, 'whatever gives you the authority to write this play? 'Well, first of all, I said I am not from New York, second of all I come from Montana, I was born and raised here, I grew up in a agricultural community I grew up with white farmers I have watched them struggle-- I know their type of stories and you know I know a good shit kicker when I come across one--but they were so upset that I had written about white people and what is so interesting that I got a lot of positive feed back here, but in Montana I am considered a radical, I am considered a troublemaker. Because I bring forth issues that you are not suppose to talk about and I have always been on the cutting edge because I am not sure what else to do. It is about, you know, you can always sit on the fence but eventually you have to get off the fence and walk the road and sometimes when you walk you got to be able to survive. I mean I, you know I would like to be at a point where I can write one of my plays and not have to give a history or you know give a logical lesson but at the same time from the Native perspective, I get you see that is not how my people are and I say, good because it is not about your tribe. And then we get into this I am more Indian that you or I am more sacred than you and there is stigma in the Native community as well. So, you know, we always are in a constant battle and what I am looking for is people who are committed to the arts but are willing to let go, you know, are willing to humble themselves. And when you humble your self and you admit that you don't control anything and you don't have any power you can see that there is something that you can get involved in and is wishful for me that is theater. A lot of the Native aesthetics that I use is theater and Indigenous theater serves as a guild line of a workbook that says--this is how theater can work for Native people and develop a relationship and I feel like that is sort of it is interesting that it is very difficult, I am so overwhelmed that I deal with the same issues that I saw 10 years ago and I say, I don't wan to deal with this anymore I want to quit, I want to go back to the reservation and get a job, 9-5 job, have my next baby but something just keeps on pushing me forward. And it is not just be that is doing it, there is a higher power that is motivating me and taking me to place where I wouldn't go to and I didn't want to come to providence, I didn't want to do this fellowship but something said, alright, because it is not about you but someone needs help, go, so here I am. My mother and my father were very strong and they had a relationship with the people of the community, we would always have someone come into our house asking my mother's advice, asking my father's advice that is how I see my life. My grandfather was, you know, my father did a lot of traveling when he was young and then he was married so I am doing that now too and I see myself as along the White community and as along the Assiniboine community and I am part of a lot of communities and everywhere and theater is that way too.

SMH: Have you found influence in theater of the oppressed or Chicano Theater or Latino Theater, small Underground Theater and African American Theater? Or do you see similarities in other communities of color?

WYR: Yeah, I do because well it is interesting because the biggest influence I had in African American theater was August Wilson, I actually met him, August in the Phyllis Center in New York and I forget his name now but he was a actually he went to cal arts and in Chicago, and I forget his name now but he wrote this book called "Buscando America" and another play that I found amazing because I thought it was just such a beautiful play was real women have curves.

SMH: Oh the movie, didn't it just come out?

WYR: I saw the play; I saw the play when it just came out. It is so beautiful, there are some things that influence that are critical and this is interesting too that I have always been amazed that White kids can go around and do all these things and be considered cultural but a person of color comes around, White women will go around with hairy arm pits and saying "oh they are natural" and when a women of color does it, "oh they need to be cleaned up, they are dirty" so it is such a strange world. And in that play she mentions that and image too among main stream there is this image that women have to be very thin and almost to a point where they have no legs, no hips, no arms and yet if you ever have been fat, it is unheard of and she addresses that too and again it is that cycle of oppression and even in our culture I have always noticed that being Native, you don't have a lot of bOdy hair and so body hair was a thing, that you could notice, both guys and females don't have a lot of body hair so I remember one time I was in the hospital and my cousin was in the hospital and I had one nurse who had a huge hairy chest and I was about ten at the time and I remember that we would grab his chest because we had never seen that and we just couldn't believe it. Ahh, he almost dropped my cousin, it was really strange but at the same time it is very simplistic and it is a difference. It is just genetically a difference because we are not used to the hair, I am not used to these smells, and well I am very sensitive to smells because my grandfather was a tracker. Uke I could go into a house and smell a house, I could smell this things, I smoke but I still can I have a great sense of smell so when I go into different areas of this town, it is like, man it is bad, I am like, it is gross, there is a group that did "Buscando America" there are a lot of people of color, I love "Fresh off the Boat" by Henry David Wong, the summer boat.... There is a whole list of African-Americans, Susan Lori Parks, many well-known playwrights. I saw a few traveling theater companies, on in the University of Massachusetts that I so loved called "Ariana" which I thought was just a extraordinary part, there were just tow parts of the play that would almost bring me to tears, "Ariana" is the story of this Puerto Rican man who hires a White blond prostitute to have a baby for him and he already has a wife who is dark complexioned and a son who is dark complexioned and he comes home from work one day and his son has drawn a picture of him for him that uses the color brown and his father grabs him and puts him in front of this full length mirror and says from now on when you draw me you use white, white is the most powerful color in your box of crayons, do you understand? And draw me white! ---At the end of the play when it is discovered that he has hired the prostitute and the prostitute had his child and the mother leaves him and she takes the son and does that same thing but goes--from now on, you draw me or yourself you use the color brown, brown is one of the most beautiful colors...and that was University of Massachusetts doing their anniversary work-nand the other playwright that really influences me was "Yankee dog", by Tonka Tonka and "The Wash" and they are beautiful plays about statements about being yourself--and George Wolfs' work, "The Colored Museum" just knocks me out, still there is some stuff in there that is hard core--that is good stuff.

SMH: I guess you talked about a lot--we are supposed to talk chronologically sort of and I was wondering what some of the dates were when you founded the theater company?

WYR: The Native theater company Wakiknabe was originally started in 1997 and I really didn't do much with that until around 2000 when I was in Mexico and at the time we had really no charter and the point of Wakiknabe was to give Native artists a home for their art. And eventually what happened was that we found out that it turned out to be more of a device, there were organizations that wanted to work with us just for the fact that they could write grants and take the money, we had a presentation with them and we were under the impression that for the conference we would do a play but that used half a gate and they gave these little tickets beforehand and they charged the public $15 but no one in the organization who had the tickets so that limited the audience and eventually we didn't get any money from the gigs but we became a political unit and that every organization, whether it be academia or other wanted to work with us, not because what we were doing but because what the organization would look like and every time we would raise money for a certain organization we would have different costs so that the money that was suppose to be for the community never reached to community and my mentality when I left in the year 2000 was...Wakiknabe ceased to exist and then I got to do 'No Borders' and that has ceased to exist too-'No Borders' was looking at some of the values of Wakiknabe could be part of it, again with by any means necessary and anyone who was interested could be involved and the work we did from January to August we had 13 different readings and productions we did it with no budget, no money, we did it at the community theater, and we have done reading sand workshops and the ideas is that to show other Indigenous people that this is an art form that could be theirs. And they don't have to go to the mainstream for the validation of their own expression. That they can validate it themselves and that the means for expression is really important and now that I am here In Rhode island I am still thinking about the possibility of starting another theater company but I am hoping and what I still have reservations about is when I leave it will carry on...this is not my home.

SMH: Have you had difficulty, you said that people consider you on the cutting edge and a radical, has it been hard to get an Indigenous audience to view your work?

WYR: I think it is very incredible because we do have Indigenous audiences come out, I wrote this play called "A broken bottle, a broken family" about alcoholism and in the preface of the play I mentioned that the ending of the play wasn't really work-shopped and the play is a series of monologues that begins with the father at an alcoholic treatment program and it talks about how he got there and then you hear the next monologues from the family members and lay the father is going to be released. The father has a conscious and he stayed in the treatment for the 90 days and he left out after 60 days and after 60 days he had the right to release himself and in the end he decides to keep the treatment after 90 days and in the beginning we took it to the elementary school, Navajo school and after the play was performed the men were all asking questions and I thought this is cool, you know, they are all into it, but on the side, all the women were gathered and they were talking with the high school principal and she turns around and says, oh I have got good news for you, the elders have spoken they have given you a blessing for this production. And I was like--oh my god, my fate was being decided as I was being distracted and I thought that was so cool that they appreciated the message because at the high school they had problems with alcoholism and now each year during the four directions when we presented lord of the lost paper wars or...AII the Wapanaquas (sp?) and Piqua's (sp?) came up to me afterwards and said thank you. And that means more to me because I don't expect a white audience to understand because white audiences don't know what blood quantum is they don't know what it is like to be on a reservation, they don't know the problems of being a person of color in this country yet the assumption is that they know everything about Natives.

They usually have an anthropologist there who is the expert of the race about the Navajo, you know, I actually had that last night, you know we really appreciate the work that you are doing but I am not from there, and they are not the only nation in this country. That is the reason why I always try to keep it open because there are so many different nations in this country, so many different issues and to invalidate their expression by homogenizing all expressions together is dangerous but like I said, Native people have been fortunate enough that a lot of different nations have experienced a lot of appreciation of my work. That is because of the work -not so much for- I guess it goes back to the question of audience. I have never written a play for an audience, I have written for the story, if I were to have an audience then, I would say that it is the dignity of human beings because that is the biggest concern that I have, where is our humanity? Where is this love that we are suppose to have for each other? And not be paid for it, so if I were to write for an audience that is it, the humanity of people, and like I say, Native people react differently to the material and I have been fortunate enough that it has been widely accepted not only here but also in Canada. And I had one, I was actually with the Seattle group theater and we did a reading one time of the independence of ...Rose and there was a British woman sitting there in the front row in discussion and she said I love the drama but the pain is too much, and the pain that is in this play I can't tolerate it you have to remove some of this, and I said ok thank you, and then all of a sudden out of the back row came this voice that said, keep it in, don't listen to her, keep it in so it was a deep sounding voice and again I was looking through the audience thinking I was looking for another white face and it turns out that there were two aborigines in the back row and they said keep the pain in the play because we as Indigenous people are facing the same situation the difference is that this audience can go home and that is the end of it but we have people who are experiencing this 24 hours a day and this play is a reminder that there are still those who suffer. So keep the pain in the play. So that was an extraordinary sense of elevation for me that the work had actually crossed over to other cultures to Indigenous cultures but again, I am grateful for a lot of things, you know, the fact that I can write is one thing. That I can write plays because a lot of people can't-- they don't know how and it comes easy to me so I am very thankful for that gift.

SMH: One thing is, what is the role of oral histories, the duality between writing things down and also listening, and theater, performed vs. written having text to how people study it in classrooms to how people see you?

WYR: It is interesting because I just talked to Craig who is the manager for Trinity Rep, he is the manager for Trinity rep, Craig Rocksinburg (sp?), and we did a reading for "The Grandchildren of the Buffalo Soldiers" and he said, 'you know, what is interesting about your work Bill, on paper it doesn't read well but to see it changes drastically' and there are some plays that I have written that read well on paper but when you perform it they were horrendous and for me it has always be a battle, I don't do traditional stories and put them on stage. In fact, I am going to give you a copy of a play I have written

called...a play about two trickster characters who are human beings and it is a love story and it is a small once act but you can take a look at it and see what I am talking about and it is the closest I have ever got to taking a traditional story telling character and putting them in the play format because you see it is difficult for me to do that, the Alaskan legends the Alaskan nations use theater but it is all form their perspective and it has to come from the clan and that is the true sense of Native theater I do inter-tribal thereafter which means I deal with contemporary issues but look at different nations. So when I do a theater company I have 3-5 different tribal nations in the group and then non-Indigenous tribal people as well. I have worked with AfricanAmericans, Latinos, Asians and we all have enough oppression and it comes form that we have no voice and that it comes from coming and being assimilated so it can be difficult at times but the focus is the heart that keeps us together. For myself, I have never really gone into the questing of trying to bring those characters on stage for the sake of putting them on stage the question that I ask is what is it that I am telling? And what would this character do if they were in this story, if they don't want to be in this story then they don't have to be in this story. That is the reason why non-Native writers an Indigenous writers writing about tricksters and I always get a kick out of it, you know, they got this romantic image of lets talk about a trickster story because whose story is it. In the realm of Native story telling there are certain tribes that claim ownership of a tale that they only tell in their families or their clans or they can only tell the stories during certain times of the year, they don't just sit down and decide to be creative and say, "oh, lets tell a trickster story, they say, is it a good time to tell this story?" if not then they won't tell it, Where as with a lot of performance artists, a lot of the mainstream performance artists who come to the reservation saying, oh teach 'em a story, I will say no. I know what you want for this story and that is not the purpose of this story, I can only give you what was given to me. And I can only give it to you if you promise to practice this for what is was intended to. What the story was intended to do, once you start exploiting it, it looses so much. Even tell a story, I remember telling a trickster story to some people in Albuquerque and they couldn't even understand the story and a year later I am with my niece and I tell her the story and she is laughing her head off because it is a funny jokester story, she got all the nuances and she is 23 and she was just enjoying it and I thought-hat is the difference, that is the difference, knowing the meanings, knowing what is funny, what is not funny, and it is just a chasm, it is just a chasm... I have always been amazed by just the arrogance of mainstream to assume that they can document Indigenous people when they can't even pronounce the names correctly of the Indigenous nations. Or that they know that they have one good friend that is an Indian so that is their validation into this culture. Into this expression and it is not going to work, that is the reason why, a lot of times too, before introducing a production I will begin by saying I am not a spokesperson for all Native nations because these are just my personal observations and you can take them, I humble myself to the community and you have to do it because it is the right thing to do. And so in dealing with traditions and fables, I avoid them, because they are not my priority, I am generating

I am an Assiniboine playwright and I am not a storyteller, storytellers are a whole different subject. So, I am an Assiniboine who writes plays, I also write poetry, and short stories but I have learned enough about structures where I just change them to fit the need of the story and I have been fortunate enough to do that.

SMH: We talked a lot about colonialism and activism, I was wondering whether you see your plays as going against some of the colonialism that exists and how you resisting it by bringing together tribal people and other people? I know you said something about having people come away with their own concepts and ways of dealing with the realities on stage and I know that bring that...

WYR: Theater is a colonial art form. In fact, the thing that I found out in the institute for American Indian arts...is that we had a representation for many native nations, and maybe only three had the word 'art' in their language and a concept of 'art' was in their philosophy --that applies for theater, there are a lot of native nations that don't even know what theater is, they have no word for it-- there are some tribes where you get up on stage and you play like you are sick, you play like you are crying, this is considered witchcraft, this is, you know, committing a cultural crime--to be something that you're not. So, it is a very thin line between cultural exploration or cultural expression and cultural exploitation. And, you only develop a system of validation by doing it enough to know the difference between the two. There are some shows where I have seen actors have eagle feathers on stage and some actors who would never dream of even putting a hot feather on stage. That's how relevant this is. So, in doing a colonial art form, there are certain things one has to do to make sure that it is not yours. Now, the question is: How do I work with this so there is a relationship that I can relate to? And accept it and it will accept me and have an understanding that I will be able to do something with it--and humble yourself...That is how relevant this is, so in doing a colonial art form, there are certain things that one has to do to make sure that it is yours now the question is how to work with this so there is a relationship that I can relate to. And accept it and it will accept me and have an understanding that I will be able to do something with it in spite of yourself, it is like being a trainers cup and having the first steel lights the first light made of steel, how do you share this with everyone else? How this changed you life. Theater is the same way and I say this not because of the concept of theater because an Olympus and this is where the issue gets complicated, a lot of Native women deal with the issue of work, women have had a stomach and they had a knife on their belt, that was a sign that they worked and they were well taken care of and so it was no just for the women but of a working tool. So in looking at theater the question is how do I find a develop a relationship and a balance between the expression, how do I fit my expressive voice and the people's voice into this art form that is so structured and then there are tricks that were reveled to me that you can break the rules as long as you know that they are being broke, as long as you have the records for them. And the difference between Indigenous theaters is there are no real records for them, the reference points are the propaganda plays the historical plays, but they are always written by non-Natives, most of the theory comes from non-Natives, and not from Native people. So again, I guess the best thing is, let me try to sum this up, let me get to the conclusion I will work that way Theater, as I mentioned, is the most peaceful way of addressing issues of colonialism that exist among indigenous people. And a great way of waking up, of allowing a indigenous community to because aware of the problem that not only exists within but with other Native nations-- It is also a way of celebrating the survival of how we have defeated or how we have coped with oppression. Also a time of celebration that we have survived all the colonial aspects of life, of oppression in this country. So, going in the ways of that, but I think the biggest key point here too is that, you have to be aware of not repeating the same steps of oppression-- in other words, the oppressed must not become the oppressor--And that is crucial, that's, that's where the issue of breeds comes into play--because again, it is the full-bloods oppressing the half-breeds or the white breeds oppressing the black breeds...and the list goes on and on... So, you have to realize, this could be instrumental but at the same time it can be another weapon-- it can be another working tool for freedom, but at the same time it could be a deadly knife of oppression--and that is the reason that theater is so dynamic right now. Because theater runs, it reaches to so many other steppingstones, so many other small step techniques of surviving--Whether it be just doing props or acting, or carpentry, or being an electrician, you could be a makeup artist--they have reached a lot of different aspects, it incorporates a lot of life. And that's the other reason why, for me as an approach as an indigenous person, theater is wonderful because it relates to some many different other elements of life. It involves so much of the other things, you know the production itself involved the whole community, I used to say, theater is wonderful because you almost have to form a family or a clan to do a play because everybody is committed to that production so that is where is goes beyond a colonial art form and you know you form another society, like a dog society but you are doing theater. That is where you leave the ground of a colonial art form but there are so many possibilities or variations with other Indigenous people that I don't think that there is a simple answer other than the fact that theater is a great way of re-calling or ending the cycles of oppression within an Indigenous tribe. That is take a lot of research it take a lot of work. But right now it is happening, this is what we are up against is that the economics is that it is hard to keep Native actors in focus because you can only offer $50 buck for a whole production and they can make that in one day for being just a stand in Hollywood, it is very difficult to keep Native actors in focus and a lot of Native actors are writing plays not because they want to write or be involved in Indigenous or Native theater, they do it because they want to screenplays, so it's very difficult and at same time who is going to be in charge of the productions and at the same time, what are the worlds they create and who is going to be responsible and take ownership for the plays? So if there are moments that offend the community, who is going to stand and say 'well, I did that because of this reason.' That is why we have to be responsible for our work because the whole thing between the cultural exploitation it is very critical that we take responsible, because like at Sundance the white people may go gaga over it, but then I could never return to my community because I would have violated something that was never mine to violate. It's like saying "I own the sky"-a very bizarre concept, because I would be saying that you own the land, but you don't own the land - and that's some that whites just can't understand because it's a whole different concept of life-so the theatre has to go though the same change and I have to ask myself, am I doing this to earn money or am I doing it to actually bring about change, or education or entertainment or a celebration? What are we doing and when I was with No Borders, one of the concepts that we would use goes back to Malcolm X --was to ask each company member when we'd start, "Why do you in this play that you like? What is it that you can learn?" What s the statement that you want to make? That you want be about? That you want them to learn. And it goes back to the idea that if you take you must give and if you give me, you must be willing to take. There has to be a balance. So, that whole thing is with the outcome of colonialism you have to realize what is the purpose of colonial theatre, is it just to make money? A lot of theatre companies in the 70s and SOs used to have programs to develop themselves because theatres don't make a lot of money-and a lot of theatre companies are not doing original work anymore because they have to make money. How do you judge success? That's always been the question-how do you judge success? Is it something the community can be proud of, or is it that you are going to be able to run one show for the next 9 months and make money? What do you want to do this show now? What is the statement you want to make with this play-this is today and you ought to be concerned about that. What the concept that we have incorporated is the whole thing of consensus, you have to have the right to disagree. You have to honor the person who disagrees with you because that is just as important as the person who agrees with you. That the other concept that we have incorporated is change, you have to be able to receive change, and not freak out when change occurs, there are too many people that are frightened by change. But yet it is a bold thing to survive through change that kept us alive. So the colonial art form you have to be able to receive the change, I mean I still have ideas about doing a all Native version of king Lear, and doing a whole Native version of Hamlet and these are goals that I have for myself, I don't know if I am going to have a chance to complete but these are goals that I am shooting for.

SMH: Can you talk about the stuff about land but also how your 'no border' concept and what we have talked about before about how you are being forced into certain ideas of land and reservations and also being carded as a tribal person and...I don't know where I am going with this question? (laughter)

WYR: Yeah, I know, you are putting a whole lot into that. I think that each question that you purposed that we could do a whole hour on and you have to be able to recognize what colonialism is and define it for yourself and you see for inter-tribe that meant to define colonialism for what it means for us. But see, colonialism for me is a form of dehumanization a crime against humanity and you see it is usual crimes against Indigenous people of various locations. And colonialism is something that it is not intended to be. And it was cross so much that it was used to be a counter to identities and you destroy it completely and colonialism is usually the end result in genocide. I look at the discussion of people like, I was remembered this book by Phyllis Lorain Jr., one of the laureate juniors and it is that called Sarah Even, and of course that ... He made a statement that in order for Native Americans to exist you either have to assimilate or annihilate the Indigenous culture and I believe that to be true and colonialism never really addresses the totally process of if you could survive refuges in your own homeland and so what happens is that colonialism takes on various forms, racism, sexism and what happens is, there is a large variety of forms it takes on but you have to go back to why it exists and sometimes it is just because of system why because it is a thing of generational process something that has gone on for years and years and it is hard to change your thinking after all of that. For instance we are under the belief because change has happened there is no longer racism in this country because of legislation that has come after that, but people really believe that we don't have racism any more in this country and we do have racism, we believe that we don't have issues of sexism and we do still have sexism. We don't have issues of homophobia and we do in this country, we are religiously tolerant and we are not tolerant. Then again that duality, colonialism exists on propaganda. It makes meaning on propaganda but when you really examine the root causes of colonialism you see that there is no truth to it so it goes back to re-defining what reality is and seeing the strong sense of duality and you have to find the balance. This whole concept of whiteness, it is dominated by white maleswhether it be sacred sects, religious sects, hunting sects...I mentioned environmental genocide, that is what happens when they pollute the land to the point where it can't reproduce. They are contaminating their mining, their oil development, and again like I mentioned on Tuesday night, that you can't even drink the water because it is so contaminated because of this exploration. So it is environmental genocide and a lot of Native people who have reservations in the West are literarily being put up against a wall because you either develop an industry, uranium or your coal mines to make a economic difference for your people-So, you have a economic handgun being pressed against your forehead, will you accept or will you fall? - An economic band-aid, but America has now gone to the service industry there is no real economic development. This whole economy is geared towards a service industry; everything that we used to make is now made outside in the colonial economic market. We don't own Japan yet we have major corporations that deal'n Japan and that is the way that we work. That is the system operates, that is even the way American jobs operate because I mean, I was surprised because I thought that I would never see a MacDonald's on an Indian reservation and we now have a MacDonald's. That is what I am saying--it is shocking. You know, the town of... Montana has a population of 2000 and corporate America comes in and that is the reality of it --you see, MacDonald's is so American who would mind? But again it goes back to the patriot reality that whether we would like it or if we don't like it--and the spirituality, I have never... you know, white men have been going into Native communities--it is such a fade right now because there are a lot of non-Natives who are going in and doing Native spirituality. I have had people come up to me and say, 'I am a medicine person' and I have said, 'who gave you this medicine? Where did you get it and why are you using it?' and at the same time I have been around Native people who have ceased to be aware of Native consciousness and given someone a blade of sweet grass and two weeks later they say, 'I am a medicine man' and I was like, 'what do you mean you are a medicine man? I just gave you a piece of sweet grass, I gave it to you out of conscious that doesn't make you a medicine man.'-- people get some sage and they think they are suddenly a medicine person. They sit back and they read about it and they say, 'oh yeah, that Is what I want to be.'-- and it Is like-No, that is ordained by a higher power. It is not one of the things you can learn from a time magazine article or a book--it comes from 20 or 30 years of working with the community and if you are a medicine person it depends on what you do here-- if you work with the community, and that is the difference.

But mainstream doesn't know this, Native American spirituality is bought and sold and it is being sold by the religious-right, in the Southwest I met a Native man who was advertising to see Sundance with flyers and posters, this is horrendous! I mean, a community that should have known better-so, colonial economy has pushed people to the extreme and sometimes without being aware of it, we don't know what we are doing. And eventually we are going to be hurt by our shortsighted vision--and my vision is to use theater and it is right now a hot topic that it could be used to fight against colonialism and this country if we are so inclined and we could have not done anything if they invaded us.

SMH: Yeah, I was just talking to my dad about the frustrations watching the performances of Native Americans selling themselves...

WYR: Yeah, when I do a play I always remind myself of what I believe in, if you have come to this production, expecting to see the colorful, brown skin, smiling people, you have come to the wrong production. But, if you have come to explore humanity, you have come to the right place-because what I am going to explore is going to be difficult, it is difficult to write, it is difficult to be heard and it is difficult to be in contact with emotions and it is going to appeal to you emotionally but also mentally, it is going to get into your skin, and it is going to feel uncomfortable because these are not issues we are used to addressing, we as indigenous people are not used to addressing these issues at times and we face our awareness and consciousness-But it has to happen--It is better that we do it ourselves than have it forced upon us once again--So that these methods and these means explore who and what we are ourselves rather than have some anthropologist, some MD, some PhDs tell us who we are and it has to come from us so that is the difference-- that is the reason why I write these plays.

SMH: Thank you. That is good.