Interviewer: Nancy Hamlin Soukup
Interview date: October 28, 2003
Interviewee: Bernice Lipscomb
NS: This is an interview with Bernice Bennett Lipscomb on October 28, 2003, at her home on Dunbar A venue in East Providence. I do this to mark the tape. And, I'm interviewing Bernice about her life in entertainment, acting, theatre, and dancing during the 1940s through the 1970s, and particularly about the Scitamard Group; she was one of the founders. Tell me Bernice what were the dates of the Scitarnard Group, which is spelled S-C-I-T-A-MA-R-D Group?
BL: What were the dates?
NS: When did you approximately found it, and when did it stop?
BL: Well, it was founded in 1937.
NS: 1937.
BL: Yes. And, it ran until 1977.
NS: 40 years; that's amazing. You were...and we should note for anyone who hears this tape, that Scitamard is backwards for "dramatics."
BL: Yes, that's right.
NS: You were one of the founders. Tell me a little more about the group.
BL: Would you like to know how it got started?
NS: I would very much like to know.
BL: Katherine Robinson, a dear friend of mine, wrote a play called Black Mail. I wasn't in that play; this was just a play she was having. And, it turned out so well that she got a group together, and said let's form a dramatics group. And, that was how the Scitamards got started, and Scitamard was "dramatics" spelled backwards.
NS: How did you come up with that name?
BL: I don't know. I don't know how we did.
NS: It is an interesting play on words.
BL: Yes
NS: Black Mail, M-A-I-L or M-A-L-E?
BL: M-A-I-L, Black Mail. Katherine was the one who started all this because she wrote that play.
NS: Did you all think that you wanted to do this as an all African-American group?
BL: Yes, we did. We thought it would be different, but we did have guest players who were white. Every time we needed a player who was white, they would join us...some of the Academy Players from around here. I've forgotten where? [Pause to think] [inaudible] lot of the people that we had interviewed [probably meaning tryouts] were from different groups. And, they loved our group, and they wanted to be a part of it so bad, but we just wanted to be different and have one of our own.
NS: Were there any other black acting troupes in Providence at that time?
BL: No. It was the first one and then the only one until now-we have the new one coming up now [Rhode Island Black Repertory Theatre).
NS: Why do you think it hadn't happened before?
BL: Well, I have to tell you that I was a newcomer to Providence at that time. I had just gotten married and had just been here. So, I don't know what happened before I came, but there was no black acting group here.
NS: And, it was this one play that your friend, Katherine, did that suddenly...
BL: Started everything.
NS: Who was Katherine?
BL: She was very brilliant. She worked at URI extension school [University of Rhode Island in Providence], and she was the only one who worked there as a social worker who never had a college diploma. She was so brilliant. Her voice was so good that she decided that that was what she wanted to do [acting and playwrighting].
NS: Had she written any other plays?
BL: She used to write columns in the papers, you know.
NS: And, you knew her.
BL: Yes. When I came to Providence...you see, I came to Providence in 1934.
NS: Was that when you married Mr. Lipscomb?
BL: Yes, that's right.
NS: What was his first name?
BL: William
NS: William Lipscomb. How did you all meet?
BL: Ahhh. I went to a party in Fall River. My cousin graduated, and he [William Lipscomb] was there. And, he looked up to see if I had a ring on my finger, and he became very interested. And, he asked me if he could take me back to Boston in his car. You know, the next day. And, then he came every Sunday after that. And, that was when the marriage started. Yes...
NS: Yes, and what year were you married?
BL: 1934
NS: And, that is when you moved here?
BL: That's right. So, that all that went on in Providence before I arrived, and I wouldn't know. But, I do know that there were not any acting groups.
NS: Now, we know each other [meaning that BL and I have spoken about her life before].
BL: Yes
NS: You told me you that you were a dancer in Boston.
BL: Oh, yes.
NS: Can you tell me a little more about how you became interested in dancing?
BL: Yes, my mother started me dancing at 11-years old. I had eight years training. I had a white male, French teacher for the ballet, and then I had the black, Afro-American teacher.
NS: Two different styles?
BL: Yes.
NS: So, you did more...
BL: I did all types of dancing.
NS: All types-ballet, tap. And, I would imagine at that time you were doing quite a bit of expressionistic dancing...
BL: Oh yes, we danced everything from the Greek [inaudible] to the Large [inaudible], to East Indian, to tap, and I was teaching that to my pupils.
NS: Where did you take your lessons in Boston? Where were you living?
BL: 464 Massachusetts A venue. They had a beautiful studio there. And that was where our teachers were.
NS: 464 Massachusetts Ave. Was that in Cambridge?
BL: That was in Boston in the Back Bay.
NS: Back Bay. Near Boston City Hospital?
BL: No, no, nearer, nearer Back Bay Station-that was the area.
NS: And, you all lived in the Back Bay.
BL: Yes, at the time.
NS: Why did your mother want you to dance?
BL: Do you know-this is very interesting. We never had television or radio, but every night after dinner the family would get in the living room, and we would all perform. So, I use to dance in my own way. And, my mother said, "well, she has dance in her." So, she gave me the lessons.
NS: She gave you the lessons. And, so by the time you were almost 20, you had had 8 years of training...of formal training.
BL: Yes, I did. But, I always wanted to be in the theatre. As a little girl, I would dress up and have shows in New Bedford. I use to go to New Bedford and make believe I was an actress. I have always wanted to be in the theatre. I still want it.
NS: Even at 90 years old...
BL: Yes.
NS: That's amazing.
BL: I still want it. (says quietly-under her breath)
NS: It's a great passion.
BL: Yes.
NS: Now, you danced professionally in Boston.
B
L: Yes, but you know, my mother was old fashioned, and in those days in the theatre you could go off and be stranded on the road and not be able to get back. It was a wild life. My mother said that was "no life for you." But, I danced all around New England in the theatres. I was with a group with 6 girls and an II-piece band. We danced everywhere.
NS: So, you did travel around.
BL: Oh, yeah. I went as far as New York State and that was it.
NS: Do you remember the name of the group?
BL: It was Myles and Johnson and Their Dixie Jamboree! [laughs]
NS: Martha Johnson?
BL: Myles...Myles and Johnson. Myles was her husband's name and Johnson was her's. ..or the other way around? It has been so long ago...I...You are brining up memories that I had forgotten.
NS: This is wonderful! Myles and Johnson and Their Dixie Jamboree. What kind of dancing did you do in that...tap?
BL: Oh, yes. Well, I did a number with a girl-we did a [inaudible] to [inaudible]. You know what was very interesting. I was very disappointed. Duke Ellington came to the Metropolitan Theatre, and our group danced. And, I had just had an appendix operation, and I couldn't dance. But I danced with a lot of the name bands.
NS: Who were some of them?
BL: [Pause to think] Horace Henderson, Fitz Williams, Errol Farber Hines. These were all big time bands.
NS: That's incredible. This was in Boston, and that was where the Metropolitan Club was?
BL: Yeah, yeah.
NS: Now, these were all black?
BL: Oh yeah, these were the big bands. They don't have those big bands anymore after Duke Ellington.
NS: But, you didn't dance for any white audiences.
BL:No.
NS: It was restricted?
BL: No, it wasn't restricted. We always danced with the black...
NS: So, you're mother would let you go away...
BL: All right, because I could go home at night, you know. That's what happened.
NS: Because, you all were church people.
BL: Oh, yeah.
NS: You were Episcopalian then?
BL: Oh, yes, I was married at St. Cyprian's in Boston.
NS: Yes, you told me that-you were a member of St. Cyp's. What did Mr. Lipscomb think of your dance career?
BL: Oh wonderful, he went right along with me with the acting and everything. Yeah...
NS: He loved you doing that.
BL: Of course by the time I married him, I was all through dancing around.
NS: Really.
BL: Because I moved to Providence then.
NS: You had to give that up?
BL: I had to give that up.
NS: But you did the acting and the dancing up until the time you married Mr. Lipscomb?
BL: I didn't do any acting in Boston. I was just dancing.
NS: Just dancing.
BL: I danced for three years with the kids- teaching. Then, I started having children, and I said, I can't do this-it had to be one or the other. The drama was easier because I could rehearse and go out at night. But the dancing was full-time. You know, I'd be gone all day long.
NS: Where did you teach dancing?
BL: [Pause to think]. Infantry Hall then. I had a studio there. Infantry Hall was on North Main Street...South Main Street.
NS: On South Main Street?
BL: Yes, they've torn that down now.
NS: Whereabouts, do you recall?
BL: Not too far from the bank-not too far from the Old Stone Bank. It was in that section.
NS: So, you worked down there. And then, when the babies started to come, you started the acting. Did you do something before Scitamard?
BL: Not the acting.
NS: Not the acting. So, it all came together with Katherine [Robinson] doing this particular play. What was Black Mail about?
BL: You know, I don't remember because I wasn't in that.
NS: So, Katherine came to you?
BL: We were friends anyway, and then, you know, she said, "let's do it."
NS: Were there other founders as well?
BL: Yes, but they're all dead now. I don't even remember who they were to tell you the truth. I remember Suzanne Lincoln; she was one. There weren't many of us...I don't even remember. You know that's been a long time, you know. [Pause] That's beside the point-we did form. And, our first play was On Striver's Row, and that was a play from New York, and the author came. We had a big night.
NS: Do you remember the author's name?
BL: [Shakes her head, trying to remember]
NS: It doesn't matter.
BL: But you know, Nancy, we were at the School of Design. And, the audience came in gowns and everything for the opening night. And, the author was there from New York.
NS: You held it at the School of Design?
BL: Oh, that's where we gave most of our plays.
NS: That is very interesting.
BL: Yes...that's where we gave all our plays.
NS: How were you able to get that gig.. . that locale?
BL: I just went down there...
NS: and asked them?
BL: Yes
NS: That's wonderful. Now, which building was it in...the auditorium?
BL: The auditorium
NS: The one that is still the auditorium...
BL: Yes
NS: And, everyone came...
BL: Yes, all our plays were there.
NS: Was it mainly a black audience?
BL: Yes, yes... well, no, no.. .Do you remember Leo LaPorte? He was one of our first directors, and he had a lot of his friends who came. And, Leo was with us a long time, and then my cousin was an actor in the group, and he turned out to be our director.
NS: What was your cousin's name?
BL: Chester Arnold.
NS: Chester Arnold.
BL: My family was all musical-all danced and acted-in my own family. And, he took over the directing, and he was the one who put us on the map when we got the Moss Hart Award in Boston.
NS: The Moss Hart Award. . . I want to come back to that.
BL: When we use to go up to Boston; they use to have a Jamboree...a Jamboree it was. All these different groups from Boston with us all would present a one-act play-we won three times in a row. [laughs]
NS: That's astounding-at the Jamboree!
BL: Jabberwock! They called it.
NS: At the Jabberwock. Tell me again the names of the...
BL: Now, you are going way back-Are you..J hope...Are you are recording this?
NS: Right next to you. [I point to the mic up by her head on the recliner, where she is sitting.]
BL: Oh heavens!
NS: This is wonderful. Tell me again the name of the...
BL: I'm acting very normal-just like I'm talking to you.
NS: Isn't it great- that's exactly what I want you to do. It's perfect. Tell me again the name of that play?
BL: On Striver's Row
NS: On...Striver's...Row...that's terrific. How did you find your plays? Were they things that people wrote for you?
BL: No, I had a catalogue...I told you. French's and Baker's (?) Plays. And, they started sending me the catalogue. And, I was the executive producer for many years, but there were others. But I did it most of the time. Engaged in...and we traveled all over. We went to Worcester, New Bedford, Boston...these are all the places that we.... And, we went down to Connecticut and put a play on for the government-a one-act play. And, they gave us over $1,000 for that one play.
NS: $1,000...in that day and age?
BL: Yes
NS: Well, that was another question I wanted to ask?
BL: It was a one-act play. And, we went down there to Connecticut. And, we use to be paid for all those out-of-town plays, you know.
NS: I was going to ask you how you financed these plays?
BL: Well, we formed a club with a president and vice president. And, we paid dues. Nancy, it was very hard. We didn't have a home of our own. We were rehearsing in the churches; we were rehearsing in the homes. And, at that time, they weren't giving out grants like they do now. See, we weren't able to get a grant. We were chartered.
NS: You were chartered.
BL: We were chartered, yes. We had...to do this was hard.
NS: It sounds very hard!
BL: You'll find this interesting. Father Tiffany, do you remember him?
NS: No, I don't. Father Tiffany?
BL: Yes, from our church.
NS: From the [Episcopal] Cathedral [in Providence]?
BL: Yes, he was transferred from the Cathedral out here to Grace Church [East Providence]. And, he had a nice little parish house. And, he let us bring our sets and rehearse there...for quite a number of years.
NS: Isn't that amazing! So, you actually...in order to practice you had to go to people's houses.
BL: Houses and churches.
NS: And churches
BL: We had no place of our own.
NS: Besides Grace out here... what was that Rumford?
BL: Roger Williams A venue
NS: Right, here in East Providence...that became St. Michael's and Grace.
BL: Yes
NS: In what other churches did you practice?
BL: Our church too [Episcopal Cathedral)... they had the other parish house.
NS: The old parish house?
BL: The old parish house
NS: So, you were actually a member of the Cathedral...not Church of the Saviour.
BL: I was the Church of the Saviour. Then, we reverted to the Cathedral.
NS: Did you practice down at the Church of the Saviour?
BL: No, just the Cathedral
NS: Just the Cathedral
BL: So we did all of this the hard way because it wasn't like today when we could get a grant. [Voice fades here because BL begins to look for something on the coffee table.] I have to tell you about Mayor Cianci. Katherine [Robinson] and I went to see him, and he was looking for a place for us downtown. But at the time, he couldn't find anything.
NS: This was Mayor Cianci.
BL: Mayor Cianci
NS: Really, near the end of the Scitamard...So, where did you store your props?
BL: All right, we had sets and everything. Now, one of our members lived in South Providence, and she had an empty apartment. She kept our props and things. And, then we went up here to Grace Church, and that was the last place. We had big sets, and we made our own sets. Everybody had a job to do, who was in the group.
NS: So, you built your own sets.
BL: We built our own sets.
NS: You made your own costumes?
BL: Yes
NS: How many people were in the troupe?
BL: Listen, I can't tell you. It has been so many in that group. Definitely, I can't tell you.
NS: Did people come in [inaudible]?
BL: [inaudible]
NS: Well, there's also a difference between the number in the club and those who acted.
BL: That's it.
NS: So the club...so you all actually supported yourselves?
BL: That's it.
NS: Let me make sure I have this right. So, when you would go to other towns or cities usually they would pay for you to come. But you had to transport all of your own props?
BL: No, they would make the sets themselves for it. We would tell them what we needed, and they would make the sets.
NS: Tell me a little more about the kinds of plays you did.
BL: You know, when we had Leo LaPorte, we had Ladies in Retirement, and the melodramas, and Behold an Empty Door. When Chester came in, we got into the Afro-American plays Amen Corner, Raisin in the Sun, Anna Lou [inaudible]. We did all the Broadway plays.
NS: Chester was more open to doing that? So you shifted the genre?
BL: Well, Leo LaPorte...He had asthma really bad, and he had to give up. We had another director from Boston before Leo. And, he was the one who came down and directed On Striver's Row. You know something, it was 40 years or more ago, and I can't even their names.
NS: It's all right. What is wonderful is that you remember the names of the plays...
BL: I have a pretty good memory, but you know something. Back to individuals like...
NS: Back to Chester, who was your cousin-why do you think he felt freer to do the AfroAmerican plays?
BL: Well, at that time, those were the ones that would get more audiences. They had all been on Broadway. You know, Raisin in the Sun was very famous.
NS: This was the 1960s.
BL: Yes, the 1970s. Our last one was 1977. Yes. [Pause] You're bringing out memories in me that I had forgotten all about.
NS: Well, I thank you for sharing them. So, in the 1940s and 1950s, you did more melodramas? Ones written by white authors?
BL: I can't really time it...when Chester was in there as an actor and then when he was in as a director. He was the director when we won the Moss Hart A ward in Boston.
NS: Do you remember when that was...the Moss Hart Award?
BL: You know that is the New England Theatre Group, and they are still running. [Voice fades] When someone from the [Providence] Journal came up here to interview me, he said that they still have that New England [Conference] Theatre Group. And, that was when Moss Hart's wife was there.
NS: Kitty Carlisle Hart?
BL: Yes
NS: What did the group mean to you and your ability to be able to act?
BL: Loved it. That was my life-that's what I wanted to be. I wanted to be in the theatre, but my folks said, "No." And, you know, when I was in the third year of high [school], my dancing teacher.. .she wanted to take me to New York. And, they were having the first integrated chorus line in New York. And, she wanted me to go, and, you know, my mother and father and what they thought about the theatre, and going out of school. That's how the French teacher came in....She took a sabbatical for about a year, and he took the class over. But he stayed with us for two or three years.
NS: This is how the African-American...the black...
BL: This is how the white, French ballet teacher came in. The African-American...Mildred Davenport was her name. She was a great dancer.
NS: Oh, I've heard of Mildred Davenport.
BL: Yes, Mildred Davenport. . . that was my teacher.
NS: She wanted to take you to New York?
BL: Yes
NS: This was the mid-1930s?
BL: Oh yes. Yes, because I was in my third year of high school, and I graduated in 1930. So that must have been 1929.
NS: Was the group in Harlem-the group she wanted you to join?
BL: That group was on Broadway.
NS: On Broadway! An integrated group on Broadway!
BL: The first integrated chorus line at the time. Yes, my mother said...
NS: That was pretty daring. Were you disappointed not to go?
BL: No, no. I knew better than to even think about it.
[Both laugh]
BL: I knew better!
NS: You knew what your parents would let you do and what they wouldn't!
BL: That's right.
NS: What type of parts did you like playing the most?
BL: I don't know. Do you know what, Nancy? I had all the old ladies parts.
NS: Oh no [laughing].
BL: Yes, I did. They would powder my hair white...[laugh]
NS: Why do you think so... you could transcend age...?
BL: It was a character part.
NS: You were a good character actress.
BL: Yes, yes, yes.
NS: Were you all reviewed in the Providence Journal?
BL: Every play, yes.
NS: What kind of reviews did you get?
BL: Beautiful, and they use to tell us that we were improving, or they would tell who they didn't like. It was very nice. You should see one of my ones from New Bedford-one of my reviews. It was a melodrama, and I had a special sentence: "Mrs. Lipscomb is an actress of talent." I have to show you that. I have that right up here. That was a write-up in the New Bedford paper.
NS: It would be fun to scan the reviews because those would make nice displays for the exhibition.
BL: You know after all the years. I don't know why I didn't save a program.
NS: You didn't save any of the programs?
BL: No
NS: Why?
BL: We had the summer theatre down on...Do you remember where that theatre was?.. That was the restaurant down on North Main Street? Down on Eddy Street?
NS: Eddy Street? No
BL: They had summer theatre there. We did Amen Corner there and Raisin in the Sun.
NS: So, you did this not only at Rhode Island School of Design, you did this also on Eddy Street? You moved around a little bit.
BL: Yes. Oh, yes.
NS: What was it like to do black plays?
BL: It was no different. I don't know...I can't tell you. You know how black people are anyway. When they get into something, it's twice as better as the white man as far as the theatre is concerned---dancing, rhythm, and music. They soar when they have a chance. The white plays were all melodramas or just a nice family play. In For Love or Money-I played an aunt. I'm trying to think back on the different periods. For Curious Savage-I played an aunt.
[Interruption: Wall paperer finishing work around her house and getting ready to leave. Takes up about 1 minute of tape.]
NS: After the war, the black-the African-American-plays became more prevalent.
BL: Oh yes.
NS: I'm curious about how you got members into the club.
BL: Different people came in who wanted to join the group. They just came in.
NS: So, was it by word of mouth?
BL: [Quiet acknowledgement-nodding] And, did you know we had some that went to Hollywood?
NS: No, I didn't.
BL: Sylvia Soares-she played on Kojak.
NS: Come on. Sylvia Soares.
BL: Yes. S-O-A-R-E-S. And, Sylvia is still acting.
NS: Still acting!
BL: She played with Kojak for quite a few years.
NS: So, it helped to train young people who went on to semi-pro or pro [acting]...
BL: That's right. Now, when we had the theatre downtown-when they brought in the plays here-they needed somebody black, I was called twice. And, Wendell Corey...
NS: I know Wendell Corey.
BL: I played with him in You Can't Take It with You; I played the part of Reba in that.
NS: Was this down at PPAC [Providence Performing Arts Center]?
BL: One of those theatres they tore down. And, the other one was Native Son. I played the mother.
NS: Oh Lord, you did!
BL: With James Williams. He's dead. We took the black parts. You remember Native Son, when he murdered the rich white girl and put her in the oven.
NS: Right. Who wrote that? Baldwin...James Baldwin?
BL: Did he?
NS: I'll check on that.
BL: That was very interesting because they were all white in the cast except for James and me. Dolores Emmons [inaudible], Edith Lewis, and myself, and Annie R[inaudible]. We opened up the play because he was poor before he went to work for the white family.
NS: As a chauffeur?
BL: Yes
NS: And you played in that!
BL: Yes, we were there a whole week. And, we were a whole week with Wendell Corey and Fred Stone in You Can't Take It with You.
NS: That is very powerful-those plays were very powerful. So, they drew on your troupe for those parts.
BL: Someone would come in a week before, and I don't remember how they found out where we were. And, I always got the parts. And, I would get about $35 a week-that was big money. I thought I was rich [chuckles]. It was fun.
NS: I'm curious. You would draw on white actors for white parts, but you never had them as club members?
BL: No
NS: How did you make that decision?
BL: We wanted to keep it Afro-American. But, there's one sad thing, Nancy, one sad thing-the Scitamard would [should] be going on today. They had an idea that they didn't want any young people in that group, and that hurt us. Because as we grew older, those young ones could have been carrying on now.
NS: The tradition...
BL: The tradition! That's why our club died out because we didn't have any young people! Then after that we couldn't get any young people.
NS: You disagreed with that [decision]?
BL: Yes. I disagreed with it, but the majority didn't want any young people to join. That was so wrong because, now that I think about it, the club would still have been going on. We probably would have had a grant and a theatre and everything by now. [Mayor] Cianci was trying for us you know.
NS: That's very interesting. Why do you think they made that decision?
BL: Well, we had a club, and I don't know why they thought [that]...after a play, we always had a cast party, and if there were any young kids in it, they wouldn't let them go to the party. They didn't have to... I hate to tell you this, but that was really the end of us. There was no one to carry it on really. So, we tried. The young people today are so different. The group we had was very refined and dignified, but we got a gang with some young people, and we tried it. And, they were swearing; they were terrible!
NS: Do you think that was part of the reason to keep young people out? Was it the behavior?
BL: No, during 1977, we had a play with young people, and they were terrible-swearing back stage, and [they] didn't want anyone to coach them.
NS: So, they didn't have a lot of respect for the older people. And, the plays changed; the plays that would have drawn them changed?
BL: Yes [quiet]
NS: You must have been sad when it ended.
BL: Yes
NS: That was 40 years that you all functioned.
BL: Struggling...and we made it. We made some beautiful performances.
NS: And, you found that the people in the City of Providence were very supportive of you?
BL: Right. We use to fill that auditorium all the time.
NS: More than some other black groups?
BL: There were no other black groups as far as acting was concerned.
NS: But, I mean like any other kind of music groups.
BL: I don't know about any other groups.
NS: You did some summer theatre up on Eddy Street?
BL: Right. What is the name of that? I have a playbill somewhere around here for that one. [Starts to find playbill for the theatre] That was a lot of fun.
NS: How did you distribute tickets if you didn't have a box office?
BL: The members would have so many tickets. We would have placards; we would put ads in the paper.
NS: Would people call someone's home?
BL: Yes, we did.
NS: Then you sold them at the door?
BL: Yes, at the door.
NS: Then, that revenue went to pay the royalties on the play and some of your expenses?
BL: Yes, but we never made that much money. You know we would charge $.85 or a $1.75 or something like that-that would be the cost of the play [ticket]. Now, today it would be $10 or $8.
NS: Even more.
BL: That's right.
NS: It was really a home base shop!
BL: We never made any money except when we went off to the different towns.
NS: It is extraordinary that you all were able to do that for 40 years out of your homes.
BL: That's right. And, you know, when we were on TV, the producers came up here and sat in this chair and watched us rehearse. We did this play. I can't even remember. That was the one on Channel 10.
NS: You were telling me when I came in. How did you get that gig?
BL: Well, they knew about us downtown. Everybody knew about us, and he [producer] contacted Katherine. Katherine and I were both in it. They didn't pay us for that; it was for the prestige. But afterwards, he took us for dinner-we had steak and everything. We didn't care about being paid or not, and then to be on at prime time too-at 7:00 p.m.
NS: Do you remember when that happened? In the 1960s?
BL: [Pause to think] No, in the 1970s.
NS: In the 1970s. It sounds like a shame [that the group ended] because you were getting things, such as Moss Hart Award-this exposure-just at a time that the group was fizzling out.
BL: Yes, yes [acknowledging the end of the group]. No, no, but it wasn't fizzling out when we were getting all the accolades. We were going down to Connecticut, and then to New Bedford and Worcester and Boston. Yeah. [Pause] You know if you go back to the [Providence] Journal-we've been in the Journal with pictures and things so much. They knew us around Rhode Island.
NS: I know that when you had the article about Scitamard a couple of years ago in the paper, it was very well received. You must have been terribly sad when it ended. [Responding to facial expressions of sadness]
BL: [Very slowly] Yes, yeas it was. I wasn't too old then; it was 1977.
NS: Twenty-five years ago.
BL: I'm old, but... [laughs]
NS: Not too old. What did you do with all the props?
BL: We got rid of them. One of the girls lived in Rehoboth, and the group would go out there on Sunday and make the flats. The fellows would put canvas on them, and the girls would paint them. We did all of that.
NS: You did all of that!
BL: We did all of that. Who was your treasurer?
NS: We kept rotating. But you didn't rotate the production jobs, for instance executive producer?
BL: Oh yes, we had other producers, but I stayed in there more than anybody did.
[Pause]
NS: You have some things [to show me.]
[BL and NS begin to look through memorabilia from BL's days as a dancer and from the Scitamard Group. NS checks tape.]
BL: This is one of the letters I received.
NS: [Begins to read letter] 1964 from Sudbury, Mass., and this is from the chairman of the Community Theatre Division. What does N-E-T-C standard for?
BL: New England Theatre Conference, I guess.
NS: "Dear Mrs. Lipscomb. After talking to Mr. Gordon Simmons..." Was that...?
BL: Gordon was our president at the time.
NS: Was that Trudy's (Gertrude Simmons, Cathedral of St. John) husband?
BL: Yes!
NS: No kidding. So, Gordon was in the group.
BL: Yes, you name it...
NS: You name it, and they were in the group!
BL: Yes.
NS: "On Friday evening... about the possibility of the Scitamard Players participating in the Festival Showcase on June 21" in Arlington, Mass. Last June, the Community Theatre Division inaugurated the Festival Showcase to present the winners from the NETC's drama competition at the Berkshire Festival and the Seacoast Regional Festival in a noncompetitive, friendly evening. I'm enclosing our program. Professor Paul Barstow of Wellesley College was the commentator, and he will do it again this year." Were these festivals both black and white?
BL: Oh yes. We were about the only black group that was in the New England Theatre Conference.
NS: So, you really were well known throughout the region.
BL: Oh, yes.
NS: That's extraordinary.
BL: I brought the trophy home-a great big trophy with our names inscribed on it. Then, the next year it went to the next person. [inaudible] that was from all around New England.
NS: It says here that "we would love for you to participate in this program and hope that you will be able to. Last year, about 200 people came to see Festival Showcase. We don't charge admission, and members of NETC of all divisions and their guests are all welcome." Isn't that extraordinary. You must have been terribly proud.
BL: Yes. We had a fun group, Nance. We had a fun group. We struggled, but we made it.
NS: It really drew a lot of people from...
BL: Black and white, even our audiences too.
NS: From all over the city?
BL: Oh, yes.
NS: Of course, I see Gordon Simmons name here, and they were living up on Pleasant Street.
BL: Gordon was our president at one time.
NS: And, you told me that Fred Williamson had been a part of it.
BL: Yes.
NS: And, his son.
BL: Ricky, yes. Ricky went down to the theatre down there. What's the name of it? The Metropolitan?
NS: Trinity?
BL: Trinity! I never saw that. Sylvia Soares was in Trinity. Then, they did a movie, and they asked me to come and be in it. I was ill at the time, but I didn't go. I sent Fred, and Fred got the part. I mean Ricky.
NS: You said young Ricky then. Where was this-in Providence?
BL: In Providence. Ricky can tell you what that was.
NS: I'll ask him about that. Just trying to think of some of the others [players].
BL: They were with Scitamards. [Laughs] If I had money...
NS: Ann Clanton, you told me?
BL: She wasn't in the group.
NS: But she has some pictures.
BL: She has all our pictures of all our different plays. I kept them.
NS: Then, you gave them to Ann.
BL: I gave them to the Black Heritage. Ann took it over. I don't know what she did with them.
NS: Oh, I imagine they have them. I can check with the executive director.
BL: If you want a copy of any of them. So, you see, Nancy, it was only me keeping them. They probably weren't destroyed.
NS: You mentioned to me when we visited [about a week before the interview] that you were worried that if something happened to you, the kids would go through...
BL: Yes, they'd probably throw them...maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't.
NS: How did this all work with your family life?
BL: Fine, even my son was part of it.
NS: I didn't know that.
BL: And, he was quite an actor. He was in Purely Victorious.
NS: What was your son's name?
BL: Bill
NS: I never knew him. I knew Cheryl. You just had Cheryl and Bill-just the two kids.
BL: Marsha. She lives here.
NS: Marsha. And, did all three of them act?
BL: Just Bill
NS: So your husband would work during the day and then take care of the little ones at night, while you went out acting?
BL: Right
NS: And because you did it at home sometimes you would be there.
BL: We worked it out.
NS: So, it really helped to draw African-Americans together.
BL: Yes
NS: I'm just looking at something you just handed me, which I just love. This is from...
BL: This was the program from my dance recital. Those are my two.. .this is part of the program.
NS: No, it has the whole program.
BL: I drew my own sets. I drew my own costumes. My grandmother made those costumes. I went to art school before I came here [Providence].
NS: You were an absolutely a stunning woman.
BL: Oh, thank you [laughs].
NS: And you had dance legs. [Looking at photo of BL taken when she was dancing]
BL: Yes, yes, yes.
NS: [Reading caption on photo] Bernice Bennett Lipscomb and pupils. Where was the Plantations Auditorium?
BL: Right next to the church with the gold dome downtown. Abbott Street.
NS: Okay. Sipian [inaudible] Ambassadors, who were they?
BL: That's a black band I brought in from Boston. Now, the first part of the recital was all classical dancing. I tell you one day I had a [inaudible] when it opened. And, a woman had her family there [inaudible] all my pupils came out to the show.
NS: How many kids?
BL: Oh, I don't know. Nancy, you are taking me back years now.
NS: This is good. This is why we are talking.
BL: One of my scenes was "Mary, Mary, quite contrary, how does your garden grow." I had a garden scene, and I had this girl come out on her toes. I had the little ones first, then the middle size, then the big ones. Then she came out on her toes, and she watered the garden. And, then the little ones would start. It was a beautiful scene. I made out all right for myself. I use to do all that kind of stuff. I don't know how I did all that.
NS: You were very fortunate to marry a man who supported that.
BL: My Lord, he was with me...
NS: 100 percent
BL: Yes
NS: What did he do for a living?
BL: He worked at Quonset Point. He wasn't here at nights. [inaudible]-so my kids got to be with him a lot. He was a supervisor for 33 years---down at Quonset.
NS: Did Fred [Williamson] work with him?
BL: Did Fred work at Quonset too?
NS: Yes
BL: Probably
NS: Did he work there during the war?
BL: My husband was there during the war and after the war.
NS: So, he would have been gone quite a bit during the war because of guarding. Do you know, Ricky's [Dorothy Louise Brightman-senior warden of the Cathedral] father use to guard down at Quonset during the war?
BL: Did he?
NS: I'm just looking again at your recital [program]. It's wonderful seeing the advertising. The ads were amazing. Beulah Lee Boyd...
BL: That was Margaret Mayo's beauty parlor. That was her sister.
NS: Beulah Lee Boyd. This is so helpful. [Pause] And, look at this, "Swing out to the night before the [inaudible] celebration by the [inaudible] Arsenal by the Red Cap Association."
BL: Oh, yes. Those were red caps down at Union Station at that time. Yes, you'll find this interesting because it takes you way back.
NS: There's Bell Funeral Home. These were all black businesses. And, here's the program. "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs"
BL: I had that in the classical and then in the jazz. [laughs]
NS: I'm just looking down the names of people. Some of them I recognize. There you are, Bernice...as one of the dwarfs. And then Caroline Hines Genieve (spelling?) McRae, I've heard of.
BL: Maybray...goes to Olney Street [Baptist].
NS: Vivian LeCount. Is that Carolyn's mother? Carolyn LeCount's mother or sister?
BL: Vivian LeCount [pauses to remember]
NS: It will come to you. Here's Janice Bell and Beatrice Walker. I'm just looking down at so many familiar names. Now, these were all children?
[Pause as we continue to look through memorabilia]
BL: [inaudible] Every year we would have a masquerade party. This was our first director [points to a picture]. This was from our party [points to another picture]. I bet there is somebody here you know.
NS: This was from 1963, snapped at the Scitamard's Beaux Arts Ball. What was the Beaux Arts Ball?
BL: It was a costume ball. We use to do things like that.
NS: You were a full-fledged, full-service club. And, who came to the ball? All the players?
BL: Everybody who had advertised.
NS: I'm looking at the Providence Journal Bulletin Weekend. I can't quite see the date. There is John McRae and Ricky Williamson. It says here... Oh, this is interesting: "Mrs. Brooks was part of the play." "Our Mrs. Brooks struggles for liberation from Mr. Brooks." And, it says that this was presented at the Jewish Community Center.
BL: Oh, yes. We played there quite a bit!
NS: This says that the Brooks play was first performed in 1969 at the American [inaudible] Place Theatre in New York City. [Reading caption] "The play portrays a not so fragile black family consisting of an overbearing father, a passive mother, and a subdued working class son, and a militant college-educated son."
BL: Yes, we gave our plays in different places [responding to another pamphlet]. Oh, that was the last person who had taken us [last photo taken of the group].
NS: Oh yes, there's Myra [Watkins].
BL: That's a good picture of us.
NS: And, there you are. And, is that Cliff Monteiro?
BL: Let me see. That's [inaudible].
NS: Oh, I see. This is the article about the last production, Ceremonies and Dark Old Men. At the Langston Hughes Center for the Arts. Where was the Langston Hughes Center?
BL: Albany... the old CI Building.
NS: Is that still there-the Langston Hughes?
BL: I don't know.
N
S: I'll have to look that up.
BL: That was our last play. And, that was when Ann Clanton tried to get the Club together again, and it didn't work.
NS: I see you, and again I see Myra. [Reading caption to photo] "The Scitamard were formed in 1937 to present an original play by the late Katherine Robinson, and it was one of the principal [arts] outlets for the black community." [Pause] Now, I'm just looking back here. You're showing me Tiger, Tiger Burning Bright. That was in 1964. "A provocative drama in two acts about a Negro family." That was one that your cousin, Chester, did.
BL: Yes
NS: Yes, a lot of the names are familiar to me. Betty Jean Carter.. . the Carter family. This is so interesting to see. There's one with C. C. Watkins-was that Myra's daughter?
BL: What it's [inaudible]?
NS: Well, that's interesting. It was set designer and make-up.
BL: Make-up. Well, she came from Boston with Chet (Chester Arthur). I did the make-up at first. Then C. C. came in.
NS: Just the name C. C.
BL: That's all we called her--C. C.
NS: And, here's the program from the Amen Corner by James Baldwin.
BL: Yes
NS: I see Barbara Thurston. I'm certain there are other people I just haven't met.
BL: [inaudible] Stewart. She played the lead in Desperate Hours.
NS: This is amazing.
[Continue to look through memorabilia]
NS: I see here in one playbill that the Narragansett Brewery [advertised]. And, Ceremonies and Dark Old Men-that was the last one.
BL: Yes
NS: And, that too had Barbara Thurston and Shirley Vines.
BL: Oh, yes. Do you remember Shirley?
NS: I do remember Shirley. And, what do you think about that phrase [from the Providence Journal Bulletin article] that this was one of the "outlets" for black culture-the Scitamard-in Providence. In that article, about the last production, it says, "for years, the troupe was one of the principal cultural outlets for the black community, and its production of Raisin in the Sun won a Moss Hart A ward." What do you make of that?
BL: You know, I think it was a wonderful idea to let people of the Caucasian race know that we could do anything, if people would let us. They held us back for so many years, and you know, when we got into something, we use to have to do it twice as hard. This, I think, was giving culture to the City, and, in other words, we were enjoying it also. But, it was something for us to do around here. Not like hanging in bars or nothing that was degrading.
[SIDE B)
[Continue to pour over memorabilia]
NS: Tell me how you measured the success of a production?
BL: In what way do you mean?
NS: In terms of the acting, was it by the reviews? By the number of people who came? Whether you drew a lot of people from the City? It sounds to me from what you are saying that the plays were tremendously popular both among the white community as well as the black community. And, that you usually filled an audience.
BL: Yes, we did. What was so thrilling was when we went down to summer theatre, we did Amen Corner. Everybody came to that, and I know for the last one nuns were there. And, they loved it. And, we sang Amen. And, the nuns went out at the end clapping their hands and singing Amen. They just loved it.
NS: When I asked you the question about how you measured success, you said to me that blacks had to do it twice as good. And, we all know the history of African-American culture that blacks offered up to whites a lot of entertainment. But this sounds to me that this [Scitamard] experience was different? That you crossed over all types of plays-you didn't allow yourselves to be shuttled into a different kind of drama.
BL: It was different plays, not strictly black plays, like Curious Savage-all those other plays. We did all types of plays.
NS: You really became just like any other acting troupe?
BL: That's right.
NS: But, do you think the City of Providence understood that?
BL: Yes, they loved it. They did. We had a beautiful following.
NS: And, did you ever experience any prejudice as a troupe?
BL: [Shaking her head in the negative]
NS: From what you're showing me, you really had free reign about where you did it. You just didn't have a home for the troupe and the financial support.
BL: That's right.
NS: So, it came out of your own resources.
BL: That's right. And, we didn't make too much on the plays because we had to pay a royalty. That royalty would be $25-$30-$50 whatever according to the type of play. We had to pay that, for the hall, for the director, and the dresses, and the advertising. So, we didn't come out with much in the end.
NS: No, you broke even.
BL: We broke even.
NS: But, you also didn't take charity. You did it yourselves.
BL: Yes, we did it ourselves.
NS: I hear so much pride in what was accomplished amongst you all.
BL: That's right. Everybody was happy to be amongst us. There was never any arguing-until those young people came in. That's when I threw up my hands.
NS: You felt discouraged by that.
BL: Yes. These other kid, we had, grew up in it, and they were cultured, and they were refined. But this last group we had...Oh, no.
NS: Well, it was radical time in black history at that point. I imagine you all butted heads. You came from a very different generation.
BL: Well, that's it. And look at how it is now. Terrible...terrible. And, it was beginning then. But it's been a great life, and I've enjoyed it. I had to laugh when this guy from the Journal asked me, "what are you doing now, Mrs. Lipscomb." And I said, "I'm just retired, being a little old lady." And I said, "don't put that in the paper."
NS: Was this just...
BL: You know, he was recording it. He was recording it when he was talking to me over the phone. But when the first director Journalist] came out here, oh, he loved it. He loved it.. ."my house was as neat as a pin." He raved about it. I was 84 years old when he came out here. "Vivacious." But that one was over the phone. And I said, "don't you put that in the paper." And there it was [in the paper]. My friends all laughed. They said, "you're not that kind of an old lady."
NS: No, you're not. You're astoundingly youthful. No one would believe you are 90 years old.
BL: I'm 91.
NS: And also not ashamed of it either.
BL: No, that's all right. I'm grateful for every day. I thank the Lord every day. I have very little gray. I've never dyed it...a little salt and pepper. But when I take a picture you see all black, you don't see any of the white there.
NS: Well, that's what wi\1 make sure of, if you'll let us, when we come to videotape. We'll talk about different things because this has helped me so much get a sense of where to look [for research]. So, I can educate myself a little better. I guess the other thing-you know-the theme of the course for which we are recording today is Avant Garde Rhode Island. And, I just wanted to ask you-I have a quote here and it says the term "avant garde"-this is from a chap named Richard Kostelonetz-"the term avant garde refers to those out front, forging a path that others will take." When you hear that quote, do you feel that the Scitamard Group fell into that avant garde?
BL: [Shakes her head in the negative]
NS:No
BL: Do you think so?
NS: Well, from that definition, I do because you were the first black acting group.
BL: That's right.
NS: And, you forged a path-and a different path-culturally within Providence.
BL: Yes
NS: You reached broad acceptance through the way in which you operated.
BL: Right
NS: You also showed something that we've all known but society forgets that African-American actors are a vital part our country's cultural life.
BL: Right
NS: And, nobody else had done this. You all took black plays but you also took plays that you wrote.
BL: That's right.
NS: Even though some of the material you did wasn't necessarily avant garde, for instance, some of the earlier material. So, in that respect, I think you forged tremendous paths.
BL: That's right
NS: And, the sad thing for me hearing the story is that it wasn't continued.
BL: A sad part for all of us.
NS: And, it wasn't easy to do this. One of the things we talk about in class is that a lot of people who do avant garde work are people who have day jobs.
BL: Yes
NS: What's astounding to me is to read the number of women involved in these plays.
BL: We were all working.
NS: Did you work also?
BL: All the time.
NS: What did you do?
BL: Butler Hospital
NS: What did you do at Butler Hospital?
BL: I managed a coffee shop. They had the cutest little coffee shop, and I was the manager. I took care of that; I was there 13 years. Then, I worked in the Outlet before that.
NS: Oh, the Outlet
BL: On the elevator. I didn't do this until my children could take care of themselves. No, I didn't leave my small children. It was my later years.
NS: But you worked full-time.
BL: I was 64 when I retired from Butler. My doctor saw the write-up in the paper. He said, "can you do that now?" I said, "I don't know." I wonder if I could memorize. You can give me a telephone number now, and come back tomorrow, and I can tell you what it is. So, I was wondering if I could do that. I don't know.
NS: Did you find memorization easy?
BL: Easy! I was in Through Double Door [inaudible]; it was a melodrama. That was the one that had a [inaudible] write-up in New Bedford. You use to have three acts then. I was on the stage for the whole three acts, and I didn't leave the stage. I said to myself, "how did I do that?"
NS: I'm thinking the same thing.
BL: How did I do that? All those lights? Three acts-I didn't leave the stage. What a melodrama that was!
NS: Was it?
BL: Oh yes. I was a very [inaudible] family, and I wanted all the money. And, my niece tried to keep this fellow, Jeff, from getting there, so she wanted to keep the money-the estate-for herself. In the room, she had a vault-a door. No one knew that door was there but her and her dim-witted sister. And, anyone who went into that door, you'd never come out again. Anyway. I was so mean. I was carrying Cheryl, and I was five months [pregnant]. And, my mother said, "don't be acting so mean in that play or you'll mark that child."
[Laugh]
BL: And the funny part of it was that Carolyn [inaudible] played the dim-witted sister, and I was trying to get rid of her and her money.
NS: This sounds like a Bette Davis movie.
BL: [Laugh] Every time she got near the door, the audience would "sssshhhh," "get away." I had a reaction from the audience. You know, one day, I threw her down and slapped her across her face. I was so intense. The poor thing, she said, "Bernice, you didn't have to hit me so hard."
[Both laugh]
BL: That's why I got the write-up. I'll have to show you the write-up next time you come. Anyway at the end, there were some pearls on her desk that I wanted. So I got the pearls. And, I walked saying, "there mine, there all mine." And, I got to that door, fell into the door, and screamed "Mine," and the door shut down on me. That's the way it ended. I was screaming.
NS: That took enormous energy.
BL: I loved it! And, I did another one, Two Days from Retirement-that was a melodrama too. Those were two melodramas. That was fun-you're making me remember all this stuff today that I had forgotten about.
NS: How does that make you feel?
BL: Oh, I feel kind of bad because I've kept it all in. And, you know, Nancy, time marches on.
NS: You know, you come alive when you talk about it. I think you could get up on a stage again.
BL: You think so?
NS: I think so. Tell me something because I'm going to end with this...
BL: I'm not tired.
NS: Okay, I'm going to ask you a couple more things. If it were today, would you have pursued professional acting?
BL: Yes, yes- that or dancing. I asked my mother, "which did I do the best?" She said, "I can't tell you
they were equal."
NS: Did you ever resent that you couldn't do it professionally?
BL: No, no. Not after I got married that was the end of that, and my mother wouldn't let me do it.
NS: I know how much you love those children and grandchildren.
BL: I would have never have left them.
NS: So, you feel that it was a very complete life because not only did you have your family but you had...
BL: I had what I wanted. So, it has been complete when you stop to think about it. I never thought about it like that.
NS: And, that was because you had a family that...
BL: Went along with it.
NS: Did other people have a hard time? Did their families not go along with it?
BL: I don't know. No, I don't think so. Katherine's daughter was in one of our plays.
NS: One other question I want to ask you. Do you think the black community...did you call it the "black" community or "Negro"?
BL: No, no
NS: But the community from which you drew your membership...
BL: Well, we went around with the placards and flyers and things like that.
NS: To draw people in?
BL: That's right.
NS: And, a lot of it was word of mouth?
BL: That's right
NS: Through various community groups?
BL: We did our own advertising and in the Sunday Journal.
NS: Oh, you did!
BL: We had ads.
NS: Looking for members and people to do...
BL: No, no, just announcing our plays.
NS: But do you think the black community supported you?
BL: They did, they did.
NS: And, felt pride about it.
BL: Oh yes, I tell you they... My friends who have grown older have said that they always use to wait anxiously for the plays to come out. Because they don't have a place to go to today.
NS: Or, you sat at home and listened to the radio, or you went and saw a play. Or, you went to one of the clubs and heard music. But your plays sound like the kind you could bring children to.
BL: Oh, yes
NS: So, it was for everyone. Okay, that's a great start. I'm going home to do a little more homework. I want to make sure I got the questions I had...
BL: Have I answered them?
NS: Every single one I had to start with. And, what I want to do is to do a little more homework, and then talk to my colleagues, Michael and David Udris, and find a time that we could come back and actually have you [be videotaped].
[Go over interview release form with BL. Friend arrives.]